The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath [Archive] - Page 5

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Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 12:07 AM

[tscii:58004174ca]Night war of Day 14 continues :

For a brief moment, the Pandava brothers deeply mourned the death of Gatotkacha & Bhima was obviously the worst affected with grief. Comforting each other now, Yudhishtira decides to fight against karna to seek revenge .

At this moment, sage Vyasa appears & gives some soothing words & says further that Gatotkacha’s destiny was such that he had to be felled by Vajra weapon only & this also saved Arjuna which was good to the Pandavas. Vyasa also advised Yudhishtira to continue practicising his dharma & follow values & disappears.

Yudhishtira orders his troops to focus on Drona now & the entire army rushes towards Drona. However both armies were tired by this time and both sides also had minimum weapons to use as most were used during the day.

Most of the army men were totally tired now as midnight approached & most of them confined to their divisions blind with sleep, abandoning their weapons, laid themselves down. Some laid themselves down on the backs of elephants, some on cars, and some on horseback.

Seeing the condition of both the armies, Arjuna screams loudly at Duryodhana & Karna requesting them to stop the fight for the day ( night ! ) & this brings cheer to everyone including the Kauravas & they all appreciate Arjuna for this gesture.

At this moment, Duryodhana, unable to digest the sequence of various events happened during the day, approaches Drona & pours his frustration :

No mercy should have been shown to our foes while they were heartless and worn out with toil and taking rest, especially when they are all of sure aim. Desirous of doing what is agreeable to U, we showed them kindness by then letting them alone. The tired Pandavas, however, have become stronger. As regards ourselves, we are, in every respect, losing in energy and strength. You still have the soft corner towards them & indeed U are protecting them.
I still wonder why U are not unleashing all ur celestial weapons . The Pandavas are sacred of U. However Ur attitude is my ill luck.

Drona’s anger was uncontrollable now. He takes up a vow now to destroy the entire Pandavas & asks the army men to be ready to resume the war.

By this time, three-fourths of that night had worn away & the battle once more commenced between the Kurus and the Pandavas.

The east was soon reddened with the red rays of the sun .[/tscii:58004174ca]

Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 12:42 AM

[tscii:3b28a8d0c4]EARLY MORNING OF DAY 15 ( continuity of night 14 warfare )

The war continues without gap now even after the sunrise.

An enraged Drona kills the grandsons of Durupadha. He also vanquishes in no time, the Chedis, the Kaikeyas, the Srinjayas & Matsayas.

Drona faces Durupadha & Virata now & the old rivalry comes to the memories now & after a brief battle, Drona kills both Durupadha & Virata.

On seeing the death of his father Durupadha, Drishtadyumna takes up the challenge & charges towards Drona supported by Arjuna.

By now Sun had risen at the morning & the fighting still continued

Karna & Bhima once again have a wonderful battle . After both showing their prowess, Karna again shows his superiority by destroying Bhima’s chariot & his horses. Bhima was forced to jump over to Nakula’s chariot for safety.

Drona & Arjuna meet .

Drona unleashes the Aindra, the Pasupata, the Tvashtra, the Vayavya, and the Yamya weapons which were all countered efficiently by Arjuna.

The battle looked exceedingly wonderful with both displaying their prowess.

But gradually Drona showed his dominance & kills countless number of Pandavas .

Even Arjuna could not control Drona’s onslaught .

A worried Krishna now tells Arjuna :

It is evident that Drona, that warrior conversant with the mightiest of weapons, will consume us soon. This foremost of all bowmen is incapable of being ever vanquished by force in battle, by the very gods with Indra at their head. When, however, he lays aside his weapons, he becomes capable of being slain on the field even by human beings. Casting aside virtue, someone of U , adopt now some contrivance for gaining the victory, so that Drona may not slay us all in battle. However, he is fond of his son Aswathama. If he hears that Aswathama is dead, he will cease to fight, I think. Let someone , therefore, tell him that Aswatthaman, hath been slain in battle.

However, Arjuna disapproves this totally. But Yudhishthira accepted it with great difficulty.

Now Bhima, slews with a mace a elephant named Aswatthaman, of his own army, belonging to Indravarman, the chief of the Malavas.

Approaching Drona now with some bashfulness Bhima began to exclaim aloud,

Aswatthaman had been slain[/tscii:3b28a8d0c4]

bok

21st September 2006, 12:06 PM

Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 03:03 PM

Raghuji. True . This was from SriKrishna's mouth itself because the Kavacha was AN IMPENETRABLE ARMOUR which Karna had it along with when he was born. Knowing the power of that armour, Indra ( Arjuna was born to Indra's powers U know that ) with a vested interest , wished to save Arjuna & hence took away Kavacha.

In return for that gift, he got Vajra which he used on Gatotkacha
Well, please tell me what earrings were for?

I believe both were soaked with nectar of immortality ( Long life ) & hence were destined to give long life & a solid protection to Karna.

While the armour was supposed to protect his body, the ear rings were for his head .

Not sure but.

One thing however, if one has to compare head to head with Arjuna & Karna, this god sent kavacha / kuntala should not be considered as an aspect which doesnt speal of true valour.

Ultimately, both were equally matched on warfare & the nuances of warfare as well

Raghu

21st September 2006, 03:09 PM

bok

21st September 2006, 07:21 PM

I heard one opinion. Kavacha was for body and earrings were for soul.

Raghu

21st September 2006, 09:36 PM

I heard one opinion. Kavacha was for body and earrings were for soul.

Kavacha 4 the body is correct, but the Kundala's for Atma?? :roll:

Raghu

21st September 2006, 09:44 PM

One thing however, if one has to compare head to head with Arjuna & Karna, this god sent kavacha / kuntala should not be considered as an aspect which doesnt speal of true valour.

Karna's gifts or boons were from GOD due to his Poorva genma karma's in his previous forms of life, this applies to every Atma....

but then how about Arjuna attainig the MOST powerful astra ever in the war from MAHESHWAR, yes I am talking about 'PASUPASTRA', which Partha Obtained after SHIVA THAVA??

Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 10:28 PM

Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 10:36 PM

[tscii:8e35137ced]EARLY MORNING OF DAY 15 CONTINUES :

Bhima kills an elephant by name Ashwathama & shouts loudly before Drona :

ASWATHAMA HAD BEEN SLAIN

Hearing those highly disagreeable words of Bhima and reflecting upon them, Drona's limbs seemed to dissolve.

Recollecting however, the prowess of his son, he soon came to regard that intelligence as false.

Hearing, therefore, of his slaughter, Drona did not become unmanned. Indeed, soon recovering his senses, he became comforted, remembering that his son was incapable of being resisted by foes. Rushing towards Drishtadyumna, he covered him with multiple shafts.

Now around 20000 warriors attacked him but he dispelled all those warriors’ shafts with arrows of his.

Using more celestial weapons, Drona slews six thousand elephants & ten thousand steeds.

Seeing the destructive mood of Drona, all the rishis assemble & Bramha Deva himself appears before him and says :

U are fighting unrighteously. Ur are versed in the Vedas but U ceased to practice them. U are not doing the duties of a Brahman . Please lay aside all ur weapons.

Even the rishis echoed the same feelings of Brahma Deva.

Hearing this, Drona became exceedingly cheerless in battle.

Burning with grief and exceedingly afflicted, he tries to reach Yudhishthiraas to find out whether his son Aswatthaman had been slain or not.

Drona firmly believed that Yudhishthira would never speak an untruth even for the sake of the sovereignty of the three worlds.

For this reason, Drona sought to approach Yudhishthira and not any body else. He had hoped for truth from Yudhishthira from the latter's infancy.

Meanwhile, Krishna , knowing that Drona, was capable of sweeping all the Pandavas off the face of the earth, became much distressed

Krishna's main concern was due to the fact that Drona was all set to fire BRAMASTRA soon.[/tscii:8e35137ced]

Nakeeran

21st September 2006, 11:39 PM

[tscii:3386bcf41a]
END OF DRONA

Krishna quickly called up Yudhishthira & said,

If Drona fights even for half a day, I tell U truly, Ur army will be totally wiped out. Save us from Drona .Under such circumstances, falsehood is better than truth. By telling an untruth for saving a life, one is not touched by sin. There is no sin in untruth spoken unto women, or in marriages, or for saving king, or for rescuing a Brahmana.

I COULD SEE DRONA SOON WILL BE TAKING THE MOST POTENT WEAPON – BRAMASTRA , WHICH WILL VANQUISH THE ENTIRE PANDAVA ARMY.REMEMBER THAT BRAMASTRA IS THE WEAPON OF THE CREATOR OF HUMAN BEINGS, SRI BRAHMA & U CAN NEVER COUNTER IT.

While Krishna and Yudhishthira were thus talking with each other, Bhima quickly sums up what he did to Drona . Now urged by Krishna, Yudhishtira moves few steps forward towards Drona. Drona , on seeing Yudishtira, asks the question whether Ashwathama is really dead ?

Yudhishthira made up his mind to say what he desired. Fearing to utter an untruth, but earnestly desirous of victory,

Yudhishthira distinctly said that Aswatthaman was dead, adding indistinctly the world elephant ,after the name.

TO PUT IT IN SANSKRIT, YUDHISHTIRA SAID – ASWATHAMA HATHAHA………… KUNJARAHA ( IN A MILD TONE )

Before this, Yudhishthira's car had stayed at a height of four fingers' breadth from the surface of the earth. After however, he had said that untruth, his (vehicle and) horses touched the earth.

Now Bhima pours his frustration on Drona by harsh words reminding him that Drona failed to perform the duties of a Brahman & because he took this profession of killing everyone & having rejected his dharma, all bad things have happened .

Hearing this, Drona’s pain & agony was compounded further & lost all interest in war.

Drona laid aside his bow. And he also screams loudly :
Karna, Kripa, Duryodhana, I tell you repeatedly, exert yourselves carefully in battle. Let no injury happen to you from the Pandayas. As regards myself, I lay aside my weapons.

He now devoted himself to Yoga posture.

Capitalizing on that opportunity, Dhrishtadyumna mustered all his energy. Laying down on the car his bow, with arrow fixed on the bow-string, he took up a sword, and jumping down from his vehicle, rushed quickly against Drona. All creatures, human beings and others, uttered exclamation of woe, beholding Drona thus brought under Dhrishtadyumna's power. Loud cries of Oh and Alas were uttered.

Despite cries & shouts from the 5 Pandavas, Drishtadyumna yet casting his eyes on the lifeless Drona's head, he began to drag it. With his sword, then, he lopped off from his foe's trunk that head.
Having slain Drona, Dhrishtadyumna was filled with great joy, and uttered leonine shouts, whirling his sword.

None of the Pandavas vouched for this act of Drishtadyumna.

Arjuna, in particular, melted with pity, had cried out repeatedly.
Meanwhile Drona, ascending the skies, entered the stellar path & there was a flash of light which moved from Drona’s body upwards to the sky.

THUS ENDS THE LIFE OF ACHARYA DRONA.[/tscii:3386bcf41a]

Nakeeran

22nd September 2006, 10:38 PM

[tscii:39e8015b7f]EARLY MORNING OF DAY 15 :

AFTER THE DEATH OF DRONA :

Ashwathama , unaware of the entire sequence of events that lead to his Father’s death, came back to Duryodhana after defeating his opponents & finds Duryodhana & Kripa in tearful mood.

While Duryodhana was full of tears & sorrow , unable to speak anything, Kripa narrates the whole events .

Drona's son was filled with grief and rage.

Ashwathama was very upset by the manner in which Drona was killed .

So he takes a terrible oath now that he will vanquish the Pandavas & Panchalas by WHATEVER MEANS POSSIBLE.

Despite the whole army being tired, Aswathama urges Duryodhana to continue the war & singlehandedly takes up the challenge.

He reveals a mighty weapon which he was holding in secret all these years:

Formerly on one occasion, Sri Vishu, assuming the form of a Brahmana, came to my father. Bowing unto him, my father presented his offerings unto him in due form. Taking them himself, He offered to give him a boon. My father then solicited that supreme weapon called Narayana. Sri Vishnu, said, No man shall ever become Ur equal in battle. This weapon, however, should never be used in haste. It never comes back without effecting the destruction of the foe. Therefore, it should not be used without the greatest deliberation.
This mighty weapon, should never be hurled upon persons that abandon their cars or weapons in battle, or upon those that seek for quarter or those that wield themselves up. He who seek to afflict in battle the unslayable with it, is himself exceedingly afflicted by it!

My Father thus received that weapon.

Now I will apply this divine Narayana weapon which will rout and wipe out the entire Pandavas.

Having said those words, Aswathama touched water and invoked the celestial weapon called the Narayana Astra.

When the weapon was invoked, violent winds began to blow with showers of rain, and peals of thunder were heard although the sky was cloudless. The earth trembled, and the seas swelled up in agitation. The rivers began to run in a contrary course. The summits of mountains, began to split.

The gods and the Gandharvas, trembled with fear.

[/tscii:39e8015b7f]

Nakeeran

22nd September 2006, 11:10 PM

NARAYANA ASTRA

Let us also parallely run through what happens with the pandavas immediately after Drona was killed .

Arjuna was totally against Yudhishtira uttering a falsehood earlier.

Now on seeing his Guru been killed in a very treacherous manner, his sorrows compounded . He was all in tears & feared disaster through Ashwathama .

Drishtadyumna interrupts & speaks some harsh words about Drona & his past which angers Satyaki. A furious Satyaki lambasts Drishtadyumna & challenged him that if he continues with such words about Drona, Satyaki himself will slay Dristadyumna & added that he should feel ashamed to be called a Kshatriya for his sinful act.

An enraged Drishtadyumna continued with his Drona bashing again which further ignited the already sensitive situation.

Drishtadyumna also added further by teasing Satyaki by the manner in which he killed Burisiravas when he was in yoga posture. Satyaki now charged towards Drishtadyumna with his sword & bow with an intention to kill him. However, a timely intervention by Bhima & Krishna saved a big fight between the two.

Sahadeva steps in & pleads to everyone to stand united & face the war & then the Pandavas resumed the war.

As Ashwathama let loose that NARAYANA ASTRA, innumerable number of maces, discs, razor all appeared in the air & it killed those who tried to resist against those weapons. And those multiple weapons destroyed a large chunck of Pandavas & those who tried to resist.

Krishna now quickly addresses the Pandavas :

Speedily lay down your weapons, all of you, and alight from your vehicles. Even this is the means ordained by Narayana himself for baffling this weapon. Come down on the earth, all of you from your elephants and steeds and cars. If you stand weaponless on the earth, this weapon will not slay you. In those places where you will fight for quelling the force of this weapon the Kauravas will become more powerful than you. Those men, however, that will throw down their weapons and alight from their vehicles, will not in this battle, be slain by this weapon. They, however, that will, even in imagination, contend against this weapon, will all be slain even if they seek refuge deep beneath the earth

The warriors of the Pandava army, threw their weapons and drove away from their hearts all desire of battle.

However, Bhima comes up to take the challenge by saying :

None should lay down his weapons here. I shall, with my shafts, oppose this weapon of Drona's son. With this heavy mace of mine, I will destroy this weapon.There is no man here that is equal to me .

Even while Bhima tried to challenge the weapon, the weapon with exceeding energy fell upon the head of Bhima.

However, Krishna rushes to the rescue of Bhima & chides him to put down all his arms & stand without fighting. But for Krishna, Bhima would have lost his life at that moment.As Bhima reluctantly did it, the Narayana weapon, became pacified.

Duryodhana urges Ashwathama to fire the Narayana weapon again but he refuses by saying that it will be counter productive if it is applied again.

Cheerlessly, the Kaurava army finally move towards their tents for rest

AND FINALLY THAT DREADFUL 14TH DAY OF THE WAR CAME TO A CLOSE

Nakeeran

24th September 2006, 02:58 PM

[tscii:0a7dc26065]15TH DAY OF THE WAR :

KARNA TAKES CHARGE

KARNA LETS NAKULA

Having passed the short time restlessly, Duryodhana came out for battle, having made Karna their generalissimo by tying the auspicious thread round his wrists, and gifts to brahmanas, by presents of vessels of curds, clarified butter, coins of gold, jewels and gems, and costly robes, to pray for their victory, and having caused heralds and musicians, to adore them with hymns about victory.

An auspicious time was also chosen while making him the Commander .

The Pandavas also, , having gone through their morning rites, issued from their camp, resolved on battle.

Besides, the Pandavas especially Yudhishtira & Arjuna were fully consicious now on the fact that unlike Bhishma or Drona, this Karna will go all out to defeat them & this made them come out with concrete plans to counter his offensive.

Duryodhana firmly believed that Karna will definitely vanquish the Pandavas , especially Arjuna as in the opinion of Duryodhana, neither Bhishma nor Drona had any intentions to kill the 5 Pandavas & instead, they showed mercy on them . Else the war would have ended long back even by killing one of the 5 pandavas.
The facial expression & body language displayed by Karna was enough to convince the Kaurava army that here is a person who finally has the heart to achieve victory & will repay his commitment to Duryodhana for having bestowed upon faith.

Having arrayed the troops in the makara array, Karna proceeded against the Pandavas.

Yudhishthira seeing Karna & his formation addresses Arjuna now :

The hour has come atlast Arjuna & Karna is the last of the great Commanders of the Kauravas. If U eliminate him today, victory is ours. This will put an end of all our sufferings all these years.

Arjuna arranges the army in the fom of a half moon.

Krana focused on the Panchalas & Srinjayas & destroyed a majority of them.

Nakula encountered Karna.

Karna did a repeat of what he did to Sahadeva earlier. Karna, after a brief fight, kills the horses, the Charioteer & also destroys the chariot of Nakula.

Karna also wipes out all the bows of Nakula & doesn’t even leave his sword & the mace.

Deprived of all his weapons Nakula now stood armless without any support like an orphan.

Karna didn’t stop firing his missles at Nakula. However, Karna took care not to afflict him greatly. Thus struck in that battle by Karna heavily , Nakula fled away from the battle field .

Laughing repeatedly, Karna placed his bow around the neck of the retreating Nakula & said the following :

O child, fight with them that are Ur. equals. Do not, feel any shame for it. Return home or go thither where Krishna and Arjuna are.

Thus Karna spares Nakula who actually was within the jaws of death.

Recollecting the words of Kunti, Karna let Nakula go.

Nakula speedily proceeded towards Yudhishthira's car in great shame & reports to him the sequence of events that happened with karma.

DAY 15 CONTINUES [/tscii:0a7dc26065]

Raghu

25th September 2006, 04:38 PM

KARNA Vs Arjuna,

Oh yes

:redjump: :redjump: :yes: :yes: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

Nakeeran

25th September 2006, 10:31 PM

[tscii:02c86a89a0]CONTINUATION OF DAY 15

Karna, after letting Nakula, proceeds towards the Panchalas.

Karna made a great massacre there at that hour when the Sun had reached the meridian.Many Pancala car-warriors borne away from the battle on their steedless and driverless cars with broken wheels and broken axles and with standards and pennons also that were broken and torn.Many elephants were seen to wander there in all directions with limbs scorched by arrows.

Many car-warriors also were seen there, wandering all around, deprived of their cars and scorched with the shafts of Karna.

Kripa fights a terrible battle with Drishtadyumna & would have killed him at one stage as Drishtadyumna was rendered armless .

Drishtadyumna himself was stunned by Kripa’s might & greatly stupified, knew not what to do.

A frightened Drishtadyumna was forced to flee towards the sight where Bhima was stationed.

Kritavarma encounters Shikandi & the resultant fight makes Shikandi swoon .

Arjuna encountered the Trigartas, the Sivis, the Kauravas& the Salwas.

Duryodhanan met Yudhishtira. As the going was very tough for him, Karna & Aswathama & Kripa rush to provide security cover to him . Yudhishtira severely wounds Duryodhana today.

Now Satyaki, Shikandi, Yudhishtira & others surround Karna but they were all forced to retreat by the impact of Karna’s sharp arrows.

Arjuna himself steps in to counter Karna’s onslaught .

Arjuna vanquishes huge number of Kauravas today.

Both armies lose heavily in terms of manpower.

As the day draws to a close, both armies , already tired & eagerly looking for a complete rest, rushed to their camps .

END OF DAY 15[/tscii:02c86a89a0]

Nakeeran

25th September 2006, 10:42 PM

KARNA - ARJUNA CONTROVERSY :

Dear All,

B.R.Chopra's teleserial Mahabarath shows a situation on Day 15 like Karna coming very close to Killing Arjuna .

Let me describe the picturisation :

Karna finally meets Arjuna eye to eye at the evening of Day15. After both displaying terrific skills, Karna shoots some powerful arrows which locks Arjuna's both hands to the back of the Chariot & Arjuna loses everything & a worried Krishna's face is also being shown

HOWEVER, WHILE KARNA WAS ABOUT TO SHOOT HIS FINAL ARROW TO KILL ARJUNA , THE SUN SETS FOR THE DAY AND KARNA , ABIDING BY THE WAR RULES, STOPS FROM FIRING THAT ARROW WHICH COULD HAVE KILLED ARJUNA INSTANTLY.
AS THE SUN SETS , KARNA PULLS BACK HIS WEAPON REALZING THAT THE ARROW WOULD NOT REACH BEFORE SUNSET .

While queried by Duryodhana after they retire to their camps, Karna gives an explanation that :

I spared Arjuna today in the battle because my final killing arrow not reach Arjuna before sunset (sunset marking end of the day's battle).
Besides, I would adhere to the rules as a commander so that the coming generations don't complain that Sutaputra Karna killed Kshatriya Arjuna by cheating.

And the episode doesnt end here . It also shows Arjuna later in the night exchanging his surprise with Krishna over why Karna didnt kill him when he had the best of the opportunity at that moment.
For which Krishna responds by saying that Karna wants to set an example by following the war code & he engages in deep thoughts .

The authenticity of this event is disputed, though.

Despite reading various authenticated books on Mahabarath & also checked with knowledeable persons on epic, I am unable to present the facts of this version.

Anyone of our hubbers can throw more light on this incident please

Nakeeran

25th September 2006, 10:59 PM

[tscii:7869b5de1b]THE NIGHT OF DAY 15:

The night of 15th saw Karna, Duryodhana , Shakuni & Dushashan having a meeting on how to handle the next day.

Karna comes out with his thoughts :

Tomorrow, I will use the special Bow called Vijaya . Let me explain to U about its greatness. It was made by Vishvakarma for Indra. With that bow, Indra vanquished the Asuras & later he gave it to Sri Parasurama my Guru. I obtained it from him.

However, lets not forget the fact that Arjuna’s success in this war was influenced to significant extent by the tactful driving of Krishna who is a skilled charioteer. To match with Krishna in chariot driving, I request Sri Salya.

I request for Salya to be my charioteer & in this art, Salya is as good as Krishna as he is well acquainted with horselore.

Tomorrow is the most important day for me as I plan to fight Arjuna face to face for a do or die fight & only one of us will survive .

Its imperative that I need the services of Salya as a Charioteer.

As suggested by Karna, Duryodhana himself requests Salya to support Karna by becoming his Charioteer at this most crucial moment of the war.

Salya didn’t take this positively & he was very upset with this development.
Salya says :

It’s a big insult on me . Karna is in no way superior to me . You are only humiliating me by doing this.

Salya needlessly also reminds Duryodhana about various castes that prevail in the world & screams that a Suta is a servant of a Kshatriya . And he goes on further asking Duryodhan to make him fight bytaking the lead instead of being made a driver to a son of a Driver.

Here Duryodhana behavies wisely .He pleads to Salya & convinces him finally to take up that role which Salya reluctantly says yes.

Karna requests Duryodhana to have a word with Salya again.

Now Duryodhana :

Salya, Karna thinks that he should fight with Arjuna tomorrow. Hold the reins of Karna's steeds in battle. Having slain all the other warriors Karna desires to slay Arjuna tomorrow.

Salya accedes to Duryodhana’s request.

NIGHT EVENTS OF DAY 15 COMPLETES[/tscii:7869b5de1b]

Nakeeran

25th September 2006, 11:08 PM

[tscii:2c06a188c4]DAY 16TH OF THE WAR :

KARNA LETS YUDHISHTIRA ALIVE

When Karna glowing like a Sun , came out with his wonderful chariot , the warriors of the Kuru army were filled with joy.

Now the Earth trembled and made a loud noise. The planets including the Sun seemed to proceed against one another . Meteoric showers became noticeable and all the quarters seemed ablaze. Thunders fell from a cloudless sky, and fierce winds began to blow. Animals and birds in larger numbers kept the army to their right, foreboding great calamities. After Karna had set out, his steeds tumbled down on the Earth. A frightful shower of bones fell from the sky.

In short, all bad omens were visible.

But as the war was at a very sensitive stage – in the sense, both armies having lost a sizeable chunk of armymen neither had any clue on what could be conclusion of all these bad omens .

Once again, Salya poured his frustration to Karna by uttering some unpleasant words which upsets Karna a lot. A timely intervention by Duryodhana restores normalcy .

Karna started the day with focus on Yudhishtira & seeing his intentions, Bhima, Satyaki & Drishtadyumna try to support him.

Yudhishtira’s became furious on seeing Karna & after exchanging some challenging words, both start unleashing their weapons.

Midway, a powerful arrow whose whizz resembled the noise of the thunder, suddenly pierced Karna. Deeply afflicted by the violence of that stroke, Karna , almost swoon , his bow dropping from his hand. However, he quickly recovers & fires missiles on Yudhishtira .

Karna ruthlessly tames Bhima, Satyaki & Drishtadyumna .

With continuous downpour of arrows, Karna annihilates Yudhishtira to zero by killing his horses, charioteer & laughingly inflicted a deep cutting wound on Yudhistira’s body & totally weakens him.

Now a trembling Yudhishthira begin to retreat. His driver had been slain. He became exceedingly cheerless and unable to stay before Karna.

Karna pursuing Yudhishthira, cleansed himself by touching him in the shoulder with his hand and desired to seize him by force.

He then remembered the words of Kunti.

Karna now , laughing in mockery, addressed Yudhishtira :

How, indeed, born in a noble race, and observant though art of Kshatriya duties, would U leave the battle in fear, desiring to save Ur. life?

Do not, fight again, and do not again approach brave warriors. Do not use harsh language towards heroes and do not come to great battles.

Go back to Ur. quarters, or seek shelter where Arjuna is.

Having spoken the above words, Karna sets Yudhishtira free & continues to slaughter the Pandava army.

Yudhishtira quickly fled away.

THUS KARNA LETS YUDHISHTIRA ALIVE [/tscii:2c06a188c4]

Nakeeran

25th September 2006, 11:40 PM

DAY 16 CONTINUES :

Karna after tormenting Yudhishtira with pinching words, Karna now focuses on Bhima.
Duryodhana sends some more of his brothers to support Karna . They were :
Srutarvan
Durddhara
Kratha
Vivitsu
Vikata
Soma
Nishangin
Kavashin
Pasin
Nanda
Upanandaka
Duspradharsha
Suvahu
Vatavega
Suvarchasas
Dhanurgraha
Durmada
Jalasandha
Sala
Saha

Bhima kills all the above .

bok

26th September 2006, 10:31 AM

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 01:49 PM

KARNA - ARJUNA CONTROVERSY :
Anyone of our hubbers can throw more light on this incident please
I'll try. First - look in Poona, second - look in Ganguli version. But where Chopra took his script version from... well... :roll: However, one more moment of war anyway.

BOK,

I searched everywhere including Ganguly's version but couldnt get a valid doc for this.

B.R.Chopra's script writer was Prof. Mazoom Raza , a very highly learned man of regard .

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 02:12 PM

[tscii:fd51c7a8a8]16TH DAY CONTINUES :

Arjuna targets the Samsaptakas headed by Susharma . He wipes out a majority of Kaurava army today- 14,000 Carwarriors, 3,000 horse warriors, and 3,000 elephants.

Meanwhile Yudhishtira , quickly retreating in shame to the Pandava camp, his body exceedingly mangled with shafts, alighted from the car and hastily sat down on his bed. Even while Nakula & Sahadeva tried to remove all the arrows from his body, he ordered them to to back to war field.

Arjuna & Krishna unaware of this development panic in search of Yudhishtira & finally come to know that he is confined to bed due to the assault by Karna.

Karna now, encouraged by Duryodhana unleashes a weapon called BHARGAVA & from the weapon flowed millions of keen arrows and the Pandava army could not see anything.

1000s of Panchalas & Pandavas were killed in a mass execution act by Karna thus.

Karna now urges Salya to go to Arjuna’s place .

Seeing this mass destruction at a distance, Arjuna screams at Krishna :

Krishna, Urging his horses incessantly, Karna is repeatedly casting angry glances upon me. I will never be able to fly away from Karna in battle. A person that is living, may, in battle, meet with either victory or defeat. Today it has to be either Karna or me who only one will go back alive.

Krishna comforts him :

I understand, Yudhistira has been deeply wounded and mangled by Karna. Having seen him first and comfort him, U shall fight with Karna.

Arjuna quickly avoided the battle with Karna & meets Yudishtira who was virtually bed ridden severely inflicted by the arrows of Karna.

Yudhishthira on seeing both thinking that Karna had been slain, became filled with joy.

However , Arjuna explained the situation, especially the carnage caused by Karna after he invoked that Bargava weapon. Arjuna himself , acknowledges the widespread destruction caused by Karna during the day. Arjuna assures Yudishtira that he is meeting Karna shortly to have a do or die battle.

Hearing that Karna is still alive, Yudhishthira exceedingly angry with Arjuna & chides him heavily with strong words[/tscii:fd51c7a8a8]

Raghu

26th September 2006, 04:38 PM

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 05:14 PM

NakeerarE

The KARNA Vs Arjuna issue that you have raised is correct, I Have seen this incident in 'Ramanand Saagar's serial 'Krishna Kathayein'.

But this Bagara Arrow is something I have not heard of!, if I am correct, it was Only Aswathama, Dronarchariya and Arjuna who knew how to use the Bhramastra,

Did Karna knew how to Fire Bhramastra?

Raghuji :D

The arrow which Karna shot was BHARGAVA .

The knowledge of how to use Bramastra was known to - Bhishma, Drona, Arjuna, Ashwathama.

And ultimately Karna also. But again, its typical Mahabaratha , there is a story behind this.

When Duryodhana heard that Arjuna got Pasupatha astra & also had learnt Bramastra, he asks Karna to learn Bramastra.

I think Drona refused to train / teach Karna about warfare . Finally Karna went to Shri Parasurama & learns everything INCLUDING BRAMASTRA.

This is how Karna also enriches himself with the knowledge on Bramastra.

But what happens when he tries to use Bramastra will be narrated shortly . :D

By the way, do you have any documentary support on that Karna- Arjuna controversy which B.R.Chopra's Mahabarath showed ?

If U have ,please get it posted through our Moderators , that relevant pages .

My objective is not to post something which has no authentic documentary evidence. :D

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 06:51 PM

[tscii:b1f2ba28eb]DAY 16 CONTINUES : BHIMA KILLS DUSHASHANA

YUDHISTIRA IN HIS CAMP WITH ARJUNA :

Yudishtira was very upset when he sees Arjuna coming without slaying Karna.

Yudishtira says :

Arjuna, Our army is fled to every corner now due to Karna’s onslaught & this scarcely honourable. Now U have deserted Bhima & have come here. I wonder what is in your mind . I also wonder why U are not able to kill Karna all these days. If U had expressed ur intentions earlier, I would have made other arrangements for the war.
Having promised me the slaughter of Karna, U haven’t kept that promise.
For these thirteen years, we have, from hope, lived relying on U & ur prowess.
Now U have very well disappointed us .

Hearing those harsh words , Arjuna with rage, drew his sword for slaying Yudhsitira.

A timely intervention by Krishna saves Yudhistira. As Krishna passifies both of them , Arjuna falls at the feet of Yudishtira & pleads apology for his anger.

Arjuna one again assured him saying that :

TODAY I WILL DEFINITELY SLAY KARNA. EITHER KARNA’s MOTHER WILL BE MADE CHILDLESS or KUNTI WILL BE MADE CHILDLESS TODAY. I WILL NOT COME BACK FROM THE BATTLEFIELD WITHOUT DOING THIS.

Arjuna now requests Krishna to make the chariot well equipped

with all the diverse kind of weapons and moves back to the warfield.

Now lets have a look at Bhima

When Bhima was fighting the Duryodhana brothers, Dushashana forged ahead & made a frontal attack on him.
The fight went for a lengthy duration & at one stage , an arrow shot by Dushashana was so powerful that Bhima fell , with languid limbs and like one deprived of life and with outstretched arms, upon his chariot. Recovering his senses, however, he began to roar like a lion.

An enraged Bhima threw a big mace on Dushashana. With that weapon, Bhima forcibly threw Duhshasana down from his car at a distance measured by the length of ten bows. Struck with the impetuous mace, Duhshasana, thrown down on the ground, began to tremble.
All his steeds also, were slain, and his car too was reduced to pieces by that mace.

Duhshasana now, his armour and ornaments and attire and garlands were all displaced, began to writhe, afflicted with agony.

Now Bhima , having caught Dushashana close to his reach, loudly addressed Karna, Duryodhana , Kripa & others :

Today I shall slay the wretched Duhshasana. Let all the warriors protect him if they can.

Bhima quickly jumped down from his chariot & attacked Dushashana violently.

He then breaks his limbs & tears his arms also by saying – THIS IS THE ARM WHICH PULLED DRAUPATHI & THIS IS THE ARM WHICH PULLED HER HAIRS

Drawing then his sword with rage, he placed his foot upon the throat of Duhshasana, and ripping open the chest of Dushashana

Then throwing him down and cutting off, with that sword his head.

Bhima was still not contended yet.

He drank Dushashana’s blood.

Bhima jumped with joy like a mad man now & shouted loudly – TODAY I HAVE AVENGED THE INSULT CAUSED TO DRAUPATHI. NOW ONLY DURYODHANA IS LEFT OUT.

Thus ends the life of Dushashana, the brother of Duryodhana who pulled Drapuapthi to the hall under instruction from Duryodhana where the 2 groups played dice game & also tried to disrobe her.

The Kauravas were terrified to see the manner in which Dushashana was killed[/tscii:b1f2ba28eb]

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 07:49 PM

DAY 16 CONTINUES :

Seeing the sight of their dead brother Dushashana having slayed by Bhima like a beast, with tears , 10 more of Duryodhana brothers now charge towards Bhima fearlessly :

Nishangin

Kavachin

Pasin

Dundadhara

Dhanurgraha

Alolupa

Saha

Shanda

Vatavega

Suvarchasas

All 10 , united together, fought with Bhima but in vain as all get killed in few minutes.

All these incidents disturbs Karna a lot & he gets upset.

However Salya gives some encouraging words to boost his morale & persuades him to resume the fight & be focused . Salya was concerned mainly because if Karna, being the commander gets demotivated, it will affect the Kauravas & also the outcome of the war.

A charged up Karna continues to fight with renewed vigour

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 10:10 PM

[tscii:bdccbdc31e]DAY 16 CONTINUES

ARJUNA KILLS KARNA'S SON VRISHASENA

The slaughter of Dushashana makes everyone stunned by the impact that no one could react immediately.

However Vrishasena, son of Karna moves fights with the Panchalas. Like Abimanyu, Vrishasena also fights a terrific war with all the stalwarts & earns plaudits.
Infact Arjuna himself had to step in at a stage when Nakula loses his chariot & rendered armless.

Arjuna after a brief fight with him laughingly tells Karna & others :

Karna, in Ur sight , I will dispatch Vrishasena. People say that all of you, united together, slew my son, in my absence, and while he was alone and unsupported on his car. I, however, will slay Ur. son in the very sight of you all. Let all the Kaurava car-warriors protect him.

With four fierce razor-headed arrows he cuts off Vrishasena's bow and two arms and head. The son of Karna, deprived of arms and head, fell down on the earth from his car.

Tears poured out of Karna on seeing his son’s head getting rolled over the earth

[/tscii:bdccbdc31e]

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 10:11 PM

Karna, gried stricken, stood speechless for while with tears looking at the head of his dead son.

Aswathama now suggests Duryodhana that enough is enough . Lets make peace with Pandavas atleast now .

But Duryodhana was firm in his resolve especially after seeing Dushashana getting killed in the most outrageous manner by Bhima .

Duryodhana asks the troops to reassemble & continue with the fighting .

Karna asks Salya to march towards Arjuna

AND FINALLY KARNA & ARJUNA MEET EYE TO EYE

Nakeeran

26th September 2006, 11:24 PM

[tscii:4274ab6dac]ARJUNA & KARNA

Filled with grief on seeing his son getting killed right in his presence,Karna’s anger went up manifold.

He now asks Salya to march towards towards Arjuna to have a FINAL ASSAULT.
Krishna gives some piece of his mind now :

Do not disregard Karna. He is possessed of might. He is proud and accomplished in weapons. He is a maharatha. He is accomplished in the ways of battle and conversant with all modes of warfare. He is also well-acquainted with all that suits place and time. What need is there of saying much? I regard Karna as Ur. Equal.

With the greatest care and resolution U should slay him .

But remember that if U neglect for a while, Karna will, exterminate the Pandavas, the Srinjayas, and the Pancalas. I observed that both armies have lost majority of manpower now.

The lotus eyed Krishna keenly glanced at Salya & the latter also cast similar glances at the former.

Arjuna glances at Karna.

Karna now asks Salya :

If Arjuna by any means slays me in battle today, tell me truly, what will U do after that ?
Salya responds by saying :

I myself will slay both Krishna and Arjuna.

Arjuna also asked Krishna , a similar question. Krishna, smiling, said unto Arjuna :

Any such occurrence takes place, know then that the destruction of the universe will be at hand. As regards myself, I will, using my bare arms, slay both Karna and Shalya in battle.

As soon as the fight commenced, both started striking each other with mighty weapons.

Arjuna fires AGNEYA ASTRA which speedily rushed towards Karna & in return Karna responds by VARUNASTRA for quenching it.

Karna creates a large mass of clouds & envelopes with darkness for which Arjuna dispels with VAYAVYASTRA.

Arjuna now tells Krishna :

I will now invoke into existence a mighty and fierce weapon for the good of the world and the destruction of the Suta's son. Let me have Ur. permission, as also Brahman's

And Arjuna invokes BRAHMASTRA . Karna baffles this addressed Arjuna :

People say that U are a master of the high brahmastra. O Arjuna, use another weapon of the same kind

Arjuna while fighting Karna , paralelly slews, slew 400 elephants equipped with many weapons, and 8000 car-warriors, and 1,000 steeds with riders, and 8,000 foot-soldiers.

Karna also kills equal number of Pandavas.

The fight was tremendous exhibition of skilled warfare by the 2 & sometimes Karna prevailed over Arjuna & some times Arjuna outwits Karna.

During the battle, Karna fires an arrow with snake headed by name ASWASENA ( there is a short story behind this snake & its enemity with Arjuna which it wanted to give back )

And Karna aims at Arjuna’s head to fire that arrow.

Seeing that killing weapon coming at great speed , Krishna quickly put forth his strength and thus pressed down with his feet that car into the earth, whereat the steeds, bending down their knees, laid themselves down upon the earth when the car itself had sank into it.

And ultimately that deadly weapon sweeps off Arjuna’s crown like a flash.

His ego deeply hurt , Arjuna now fires continuously missiles which pains Karna .

[/tscii:4274ab6dac]

Nakeeran

27th September 2006, 12:05 AM

[tscii:5ab53cfea4]DAY 16 CONTINUES :

ARJUNA KILLS KARNA

The great battle continued with Karna & Arjuna matching arrow by arrow .

As the fight reaches a very sensitive stage, the earth began to devour the left wheel of Karna’s car. This is in consequence of the curse of a Brahmana & the wheel sunks deep into the earth.

Karna tries to invoke Bramastra now but unfortunately, now Sri Parasurama’s curse affects him & he is unable to recollect the divine mantras that will enable invoking the mighty Bramastra.

Arjuna fires Aindra weapon with sacred mantras spelt properly but Karna baffles it with his skilful archery.

Arjuna tries to apply Bramastra now but Karna manages to cut the strings 11 times ! .

However , the great warrior that he was, Arjuna quickly fixes the strings at a lightening speed & this feat seemed to be exceedingly wonderful.

Krishna now asks Arjuna to strike Karna more vigorously.

As the fight progressed further, Karna finds it extremely difficult to counter Arjuna’s arrows at a single stranded position of his car as it sunk very deep.

Karna shouts to Arjuna :

Partha, wait for a moment. Let me take the wheel up first. Brave warriors that are observant of the practices of the righteous, never shoot their weapons at persons with dishevelled hair, or at those that have turned their faces from battle, or at a Brahmana, or at him who joins his palms, or at him who yields himself up or beg for quarter or at one who has put up his weapon, or at one whose arrows are exhausted, or at one whose armour is displaced, or at one whose weapon has fallen off or been broken. You are the bravest of man in the world. U are well-acquainted with the rules of battle. For these reasons, excuse me for a moment, that is, till I extricate my wheel, from the earth.

Krishna now :

By good luck it is, that U remember virtue. It is generally seen that they that are mean, when they sink into distress, rail at Providence but never at their own misdeeds. U along with ur men , had caused Draupadi, clad in a single piece of raiment, to be brought into the midst of the assembly. On that occasion, O Karna, this virtue of U did not manifest itself.
When the Pandava house at Varanavata was set for burning to death, what were U doing ?
boy Abhimanyu in battle, slew him, whither had this virtue of thine then gone? If this virtue that thou now invokest was nowhere on those occasions, what is the use then And what happened with ur virtue when U all surrounded a single Abimanyu & slayed him by unfair means.

Karna’s head hung down in shame on hearing the words of Krishna & did not utter anything.

In rage, he continues to fight with Arjuna.

Arjuna fires Agneya astra again which gets baffled by Karna’s Varuna astra.

Karna now shoots a very powerful arrow which hits Arjuna’s chest & stunned by the velocity of the arrow, Arjuna drops his Gandiva & sits back.

Availing himself of that opportunity, Karna jumped down from his car seizing the wheel with his two arms he endeavoured to drag it up, but though possessed of great strength, he failed in his efforts, as destiny would have it.

Meanwhile Arjuna, recovering his senses, took up a shaft, fatal as the rod of Death, and called anjalika.

Krishna now tells Arjuna :

Cut off with Ur arrow, the head of this enemy of Urs. before he succeeds in getting upon his car.

AND ULTIMALY, ARJUNA WITH THAT RAZOR HEADED SHAFT SHOOTS IT WHICH SPEEDILY FLIES & CUTS OFF THE HEAD OF KARNA WHILE KARNA WAS TRYING TO LIFT THE WHEEL.

There were loud calls , of "Oh" and "Alas" arose from the Kuru army.

Thus cut off with that Anjalika, the trunk of Karna fell down on the earth.

Then from that body of the fallen Karna a light passing through the welkin penetrated the sun. This wonderful sight, was beheld by the human warriors after the fall of Karna. Then the Pandavas, beholding Karna slain by Arjuna, loudly blew their conchs. Similarly, Krishna and Arjuna also, filled with delight, and losing no time, blew their conchs.

THUS ENDS THE LIFE OF ILLUSTRIOUS DHAN VEER SURA KARNA WHO GAVE HIS HEART AND SOLE TO DURYODHANA.

THE MANNER IN WHICH ARJUNA KILLED KARNA WAS TOTALLY AGAINST THE WAR CODE THAT PREVAILED DURING THE MAHABARATH TIMES & ALSO AGAINST THE HONOUR OF A SKILLFUL WARRIOR WHOSE NAME WAS KNOWN WORLDWIDE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS & FOR HAVING PRACTICED FAIR METHODS

[/tscii:5ab53cfea4]

Nakeeran

27th September 2006, 02:57 PM

Observations :

What puzzles me is the picturisation of Karna's end in the tamil movie Karnan :shock:

The movie shows Karnan getting severely wounded by Arjuna while he was trying to lift his chariot wheel & falls down wrything in pain.

And Karna is not dead by now as all arrows of Arjuna fall on Karna like garlands & flowers !!. The justification shown here was that due to his noble deeds , his life gets an extension thus by God of Dharma !

Now Krishna in disguise asks for his life as a dhaan which Karna gives immediately. After this, an arrow shot by Arjuna kills him.

I tried my best searching all documents but no where I could see this cinema version . Wonder how did they picturise it like this !!

Could be pure melodrama , a way to glorify that character .

Raghu

27th September 2006, 06:22 PM

Nakeeran

27th September 2006, 08:40 PM

[tscii:c662be2042]AFTER KARNA's DEATH :

When Duryodhana heard the news of Karna’s death, his eyes bathed in tears, repeatedly sighed .

A grief sticken Salya narrates the whole story to Duryodhana :

I have never seen a wonderful battle like today . Karna had powerfully assailed the two Krishnas today and all others who are Ur foes. Destiny, however, has certainly flowed, controlled by Arjuna.

Upon the fall of Karna no warrior of Kauravas set his heart on rallying the troops or putting forth his prowess. Consequently, the Kauravas faced huge losses & were virtually reduced to bare minimum after Karna died .

Duryodhana, deeply afflicted and deprived of his senses, and with eyes bathed in tears, wept for Karna , saying, "Karna! Oh Karna!" Then all the kings headed by Drona's son, repeatedly comforted Duryodhana.

Duryodhana found the loss of Karna much more than Bhishma or Drona .

Seeing the plight of Duryodhana, Kripacharya speaks some kind words about those great warriors who had given their lives during the war & there is no need to shed tears as they will definitely attain moksha & also pursued him to make peace with the Pandavas & end the war atleast now.

But Duryodhana was not for this advice. He says :

All these years, I have manifested only enemity & wrath on the Pandavas & the manner we tried to disrobe Draupadhi & other sins & also for having killed Abimanyu, they will never forgive me. Besides, Having also enjoyed the sovereignty of this earth bounded by the ocean, how shall I be able to enjoy, under favour of the Pandavas, a kingdom in peace? Having shone like the Sun upon the heads of all the kings, how shall I walk behind Yudhishthira like a slave?
Having enjoyed all enjoyable articles and shown great compassion, how shall I lead a miserable life now, with miserable men as my companions? I do not hate those mild and beneficial words that thou hast spoken. I, however, do not think that this is the time for peace.
To fight righteously is what I regard to be good policy. This is not the time for acting like a eunuch. On the other hand, that is time for the battle. I have performed many sacrifices. I have given away Dakshinas to Brahmanas, I have obtained the attainment of all my wishes. I have listened to Vedic recitations. I have walked upon the heads of my foes. My servants have all been well cherished by me. I have relieved people in distress. I dare not, address such humble words to the Pandavas. I have conquered foreign kingdoms. I have properly governed my own kingdom.
I have paid off my debt to the Pitris and to Kshatriya duty. Certainly, there is no happiness here. What becomes of kingdom, and what of good name? Fame is all that one should acquire here. That fame can be obtained by battle, and by no other means. The death that a Kshatriya meets with at home is censurable. Death on one's bed at home is highly sinful. The man who casts away his body in the woods or in battle after having performed sacrifices, obtains great glory. He is no man who dies miserably weeping in pain, afflicted by disease and decay, in the midst of crying kinsmen. Abandoning diverse objects of enjoyment, I shall now, by righteous battle, proceed to the regions of heaven obtaining the companionship of those that have attained to the highest end.
I will follow the path of our venerable grandsire, by the preceptor endued with great intelligence, by Jayadratha, by Karna, and by Duhshasana. Many brave kings, who had exerted themselves vigorously for my sake in this battle, have been slain. Mangled with arrows and their limbs bathed in blood, they lie now on the bare Earth. Possessed of great courage and conversant with excellent weapons, those kings, who had, again, performed sacrifices as ordained in the scriptures, having cast off their life breaths in the discharge of their duties, have now become the denizens of Indra's abode.
Remembering with gratitude the feats of those heroes that have died for me, I desire to pay off the debt I owe them, instead of fixing my heart upon kingdom. If, having caused my friends and brothers and grandsires to be slain, I save my own life, the world will without doubt, censure me. What kind of sovereignty will that be which I will enjoy, destitute of kinsmen and friends and well-wishers, and bowing down unto the son of Pandu? I, who have lorded it over the universe in that way, will now acquire heaven by fair fight.

Hearing those words of Duryodhana, all the Kshatriyas there applauded that speech and cheered the king, saying, "Excellent, Excellent." Without at all grieving for their defeat, and firmly resolved upon displaying their prowess, all of them, being determined to fight, became filled with enthusiasm.

Having groomed their animals, the Kauravas, delighting at the prospect of battle, took up their quarters for the night

The surviving group of Duryodhana, Kripacharya, Aswathama & Kritavarma , after a brief discussion, make Salya as their Commander for the next day.[/tscii:c662be2042]

Nakeeran

27th September 2006, 11:06 PM

[tscii:cdbed20fa1]DAY 17th OF THE WAR :

SALYA DIES

Lets have a look at how many remained on 17th day

KAURAVAS :

11,000 cars, 10,700 elephants, 200,000 horses, and three millions of foot, composed the strength

PANDAVAS :

6,000 cars, 6,000 elephants, 10,000 horses & 1 million foot soldiers remained.

Under the leadership of Salya, the Kauravas faced the 17th day of the war.

At this moment, the Kaurava chiefs had – Salya, Duryodhana,Shakuni , Aswathama, Kritavarma & Kripacharya , supported by some small kings.

While the Pandavas head count was strong except that they had lost – Abimanyu, Gatotkacha, Hiravan , Drupadha & Virata.

Seeing Salya in the front, Yudhishtira says to Krishna :

Bhishma, and Drona, and Karna, and the other kings, that put forth their prowess for the sake of the Kauravas, have all perished in battle. You all have exerted your valour according to your courage and in respect of the shares allotted to you.
Only one share, mine remains & I wish to contribute on Salya.

Saying this, Yudhishtira himself leads the war for Pandavas & fights with venom & aggression.

The fight went on in a very interesting manner & both sides lost heavily but finally Yudishitira hurls a dart on Salya. It was a divine weapon fired with sacred mantras duly chanted.

As it penetrated deep in to Salya’s body, he also falls dead .

Salya was the brother of Madri & uncle of Nakula & Sahadeva. When he hears about the great war , he with his armymen while passing by to reach Yudhishtira come across another group of armymen who treat him with all respect & provide excellent hospitality.

Salya immensely pleased with this, seeks to meet the host & wished to reciprocate for the gesture . When finally Duryodhana emerged from his tent, Salya realized that he had been smartly outdone by Duryodhana .

Duryodhana requests Salya to be part of his army which he out of gratitude accepts.

However, when Yudhishtira hears the outcome, he gets upset with
Salya but Salya assures him that though he will be with Kauravas, his moral support will be with the Pandavas & will do that part which will irritate the Kauravas. Salya applied this frustration on Karna in the war.

Ultimately, Salya gives a whole hearted support on 17th day r & dies [/tscii:cdbed20fa1]

Nakeeran

28th September 2006, 12:17 AM

[tscii:652f3fd38f]By the end of Day 17, the Kaurava army consisted :

500 horses

200 Chariots

100 elephants

3000 Foot soldiers

Shakuni faced Sahadeva.

Sahadeva addressed him:

U rejoiced greatly in the midst of the assembly, while gambling with dice. Receive now, the fruit of that act. All those wicked-souled ones that had ridiculed us then have perished. Only that wretch of his race, Duryodhana, is still alive, and U.

The fight was terrible to watch as both were badly wounded . Finally,a powerful weapon of Sahadeva cuts off Sakuni’s head.
Destitute of troops with only few men around, a tired Duryodhana looked like an orphan and he badly needed some rest to quench .

While the Pandavas had the following by the end of the war :

2,000 chariots

700 elephants

5000 horses

10000 foot soldiers

Pitiable was the condition of Duryodhana at this moment as he saw virtually not a single warrior on his side.

And only Aswathama, Kripa & Kritavarma were alive but Duryodhana was unaware that these 3 are still around to support him.

Abandoning his chariot, Duryodhana moved eastwards taking up his mace, on foot towards a lake. While he proceeded far on foot, Duryodhana also recalls the wise words of Vidura & he admires his vision about the disaster.

A totally exhausted Duryodhana, badly in need of rest & feeling thirsty, also the whole body scorched by the weapons & above all aggrieved by the great loss of his dear brothers & friends .

With heart burning in grief at having witnessed the extermination of his army, desired to penetrate into the depths of that lake with an intention to cool himself for sometime

[/tscii:652f3fd38f]

Raghu

28th September 2006, 02:57 PM

NakeerarE,

After Angaraj Karna, it was Aswathama who was appointed as the Commander not salya .

Nakeeran

28th September 2006, 03:00 PM

NakeerarE,

After Angaraj Karna, it was Aswathama who was appointed as the Commander not salya .

Raghuji

Porumai Porumai pls :D

Aswathama will be appointed as commander after Duryodhana falls & Duryodhana uses his blood to take sankalpa for making him the charge de affairs :D

I will be covering that soon !

Raghu

28th September 2006, 03:01 PM

Nakeeran

28th September 2006, 03:05 PM

With heart burning in grief at having witnessed the extermination of his army, desired to penetrate into the depths of that lake with an intention to cool himself for sometime [/font]

and to hide away from the Pandavas, he freezes the lake by chanting some Mantras and make him self invisible from the Pandavas..

It was not actually an intention to run away from the war but to take some badly needed rest & cool himself for a brief moment so that he would be better prepared for a final do or die .

Duryodhana , if he had wished, he could have fled after Karna was killed. With limited resources he still continued to fight.

Please read the comments of Duryodhana above when Kripa advises him to make peace with Pandavas . His views get wholehearted support from the remaining Kauravas and thats how they resume battle with Salya as their head :D

Raghu

28th September 2006, 04:13 PM

Raghu

28th September 2006, 04:20 PM

Aswathama will be appointed as commander after Duryodhana falls & Duryodhana uses his blood to take sankalpa for making him the charge de affairs :D

Yes yes I remember it now :oops: :oops:

It will be after Bhima slays Duryodhana , Aswathama will take charge, and b4 Duryodhana dies, Aswathama will promise to Duryodhana that he will kill all the pandavas. This proise will happen near the lake, as this will be the place where Duryodhana dies, the seconds b4 he dies, he will see Karna's Atma in the skys dropping flowers on him!

Nakeeran

28th September 2006, 07:21 PM

NakeerarE

When does Kiruparchariya take the lead, cos i remmeber it was Aswathaama, Kiruparchariya and some1 else, who sneak into the tents , where the Pandava's children were sleeping , and while Kirupa nd the other guys stand on Guard, Aswathama would walk into the tents and cut off the five childrens heads, while they are fast asleep

Raghuji

Its Ashwathama along with Kripa & Kritavarma ( relative of Krishna ) who jointly execute that mass massacre of Panchalas .

This episode will be covered shortly.

Now the focus is on Duryodhana's final battle :D

Nakeeran

28th September 2006, 11:53 PM

[tscii:4f2d0efb97]DURYODHANA INSIDE THE LAKE

As Duryodhana disappeared from the war scene, the Pandavas searched for Duryodhana but could not get him. They all went back to their tents .

Now Kripa, Aswathama & Kritavarma approached the lake & speak some encouraging words & request him to come out & fight . Their contention was that even the Pandavas were reduced to minimum numbers only & they were also equally mangled but the 5 brothers & Drishtadyumna & Shikandi , besides the 5 sons of Pandavas are alive. So its right time to resume fight & emerge victorious.

Duryodhana said :

By good luck, I see you come back with life from this destructive battle.After we have rested a while and dispelled our fatigue, we shall encounter the enemy and conquer him. You are all tired and I myself am exceedingly mangled. For these reasons, I do not like to fight now.
Your devotion also to me is great. This, however, is not the time for prowess. Resting for this one night, I shall, on the morrow, join you and fight with the foe. In this there is no doubt

While they were conversing , a group of hunters overhear the dialogue & incidentally, they were food providers to Bhima.
Upon hearing from the hunters, the entire Pandavas rush to the spot where the lake is situated & Yudhishtira loudly shouts at Duryodhana to come out.

( seeing the pandvas approach, the 3 remaining quickly moved away from that area as they didnt want to expose that Duryodhana was somewhere around )

Yudhishtira speaks some very harsh words on him calling him timid for having escaped deep into the lake running away from the Warfield & this act is not worthy of a true warrior & a Kshatriya & chides him to come out & fight.

Duryodhana responds :

I have not fled from the field of battle actuated by the fear of life. I was alone, without a single follower to stand by me in battle. It was for this that I desired a little rest! It was not for the sake of saving my life, it was not from fear, it was not from grief that I entered these waters! It was only in consequence of fatigue that I did so. Rising from this lake I will certainly fight all of you in battle
Yudhishthira says :

Rise even now, O Duryodhana & fight with us. Either slaying the Parthas in battle make this kingdom Urs or slain by us in battle, proceed to those regions that are reserved for heroes.

Duryodhana again :

All my dear relatives and friends are gone now dead. I do not, again, like to enjoy any longer the earth that is now shorn of wealth and bereft of superior Kshatriyas.
I no longer like to rule a kingdom divested of friends and allies.Having caused friends such as I had to be slain and even sons and brothers and sires, and seeing my kingdom wrested by you, who is there like myself that would like to live?
Infact, the kingdom and this world all yours now. Do enjoy now cheerfully.

A roaring Yudhishtira now :

I don’t want any kingdom of yours getting gifted by you. I shall, on the other hand, enjoy the earth after vanquishing U in battle.
Having first refused the request of Krishna for a small piece of land, What is this folly of Urs ?
Either rule the earth after having vanquished us, or go to regions of blessedness after being slain by us! If both of us are alive, then all creatures will remain in doubt about to whom the victory belongs.

Like the above words, the Pandavas repeatedly rebuked and mocked Duryodhana & asked him to fight .[/tscii:4f2d0efb97]

Nakeeran

29th September 2006, 12:28 AM

[tscii:1a4f7961bd]DURYODHANA's FINAL BATTLE :

The Pandavas continue to utter harsh words and provoked Duryodhana.

Finally when Yudhishtira screams at Duryodhana :

It is not for kingdom or land that we fight . For the so many wrongs that U did to us & the manner U treated Draupadhi on that dreadful day in sabha, nothing will give us satisfaction except Ur life.

Hearing those harsh words, Duryodhana comes out of the lake like a wounded lion with ferocity.

Having come out now, Duryodhana says :

I am alone now without any weapon except my mace , or chariot or manpower. How can I fight on foot against U all without any weapon ?
I wish U fight with me one at a time. I am in no way scared of you all . Standing in battle, alone I can resist you all.

Yudhishtira was stunned by Duryodhana’s bravery now & admires his valour. He now suggests :

Duryodhana, U are a real hero . As U are conversant with mace fight , U can chose mace as ur weapon & fight with ANY ONE OF US . All of us will stand as spectators here. I grant now that even if you slay any one of us , You shall become the king . Otherwise, slain by us, go to heaven.

Thanking Yudhishtira now Duryodhana says :

This mace that I hold in my hand is the weapon that I select. Let any one amongst you who thinks that he will be my match come forward and fight with me on foot, armed with mace.
I shall, with my mace, vanquish U & Ur brothers

Now permitted by Yudhishtira, Duryodhana gets all the necessary equipments like armour , head gear etc which he gets well dressed up & readies for the final fight.

Watching everything , Krishna poured his anger on Yudishtira :

On what basis did U tell Duryodhana to fight with anyone of the Pandavas. Why did U give him that choice of mace fight ? Arent U aware that Duryodhana vigorously practised with the mace upon a statue of iron resembling Bhima.
I don’t regard anyone in this world equal to Duryodhana on mace fighting . Only Bhima comes close to him but his practice with mace is not so great.
You should know the difference between Bhima & Duryodhana – while Bhima is possessed of might and prowess – Duryodhana is immensely possessed of skill.
In a contest between might and skill, the latter always prevails.Through your words , you have put the Pandavas in great danger.
I don’t see anyone in the world today, competent to vanquish Duryodhana on mace fight.
I think now that U are all destined to live in exile only always.

Thus Krishna chided Yudhishtira for that grave mistake of his.

Now Bhima steps in and assures both that he will do the fight with Duryodhana & bring victory .

Seeing Bhima rushing in, Duryodhana challenges him & finally picks him as his fighter. After mutually exchanging some harsh challenging words, both get ready to fight the final battle.

At this moment, Balarama appears before them.[/tscii:1a4f7961bd]

Nakeeran

29th September 2006, 10:32 PM

[tscii:be7c5ad3c6]DURYODHANA FIGHTS WITH BHIMA

Seeing Balarama, the Pandavas cheerfully worshipped him and paid respects.

Sri Balarama was diametrically opposite to Sri Krishna on views as before the war broke out, he told clearly to both sides :

I will render aid neither to the son of Dhritarashtra nor to the sons of Pandu. I am sick of this needless war which will definitely witness bloodshed and loss of precious lives.

And he left for theerthyatra which he completes and reaches the war spot .

After taking his blessings, a fierce fight commenced between Duryodhana and Bhima. The strokes of their maces produced loud sounds like those of thunderbolts. Each longing for victory, the battle that took place between them was terrible,. All their limbs bathed in blood.

As the fight went on for hours continuously, out of fatigue, both took rest for sometime , resumed fighting.

As the fight became more interesting, all assembled there wondered who will win finally.

While Bhima’s fight was full of vengeance oriented, Duryodhana’s style presented a highly beautiful spectacle.

Both coursed in beautiful circles, advanced, and receded.

At one stage a powerful blow of Bhima makes Duryodhana tumble and he falls down which brings loud cheer to the Pandavas. However Duryodhana quickly recovers and strikes Bhims with great force.Bhima falls down on the spot with weakened limbs and the blow breaks his armour.
However, wiping his face dyed with blood, Bhima recovers and stood up again .

As the fight further progressed, a worried Arjuna asks Krishna, who will win finally ? for which Krishna replies :

Though Bhima is mightier, Duryodhana is more skilful.If we allow this to continue, Bhima will never be able to win. If he were to fight fairly, Bhima will never succeed in slaying Duryodhana. If, however, he fights unfairly he will be surely able to slay Duryodhana. Therefore, let Bhimasena put forth his prowess, aided by deception.
At the time of the gambling, Bhima vowed to break the thighs of Duryodhana with his mace in battle. Let him accomplish that vow of his. Let him with deception, slay the Kuru king who is full of deception. If Bhima, depending upon his might alone, were to fight fairly, king Yudhishthira will have to incur great danger. I tell U again Arjuna. It is through the fault of king Yudhishthira alone that danger has once more overtaken us.
Having obtained the victory over others, he placed himself once more in a situation of doubt and peril. This has been an act of great folly on the part of Yudhishthira, since he hath made the result of the battle depend upon the victory or the defeat of only one warrior. Duryodhana is accomplished, he is a hero and he is firmly resolved. So Bhima should adopt unfair methods by breaking his thighs , fulfil the vow he took earlier.

Having heard those words of Krishna, Arjuna, strikes his own left thigh before the eyes of Bhima . Understanding that sign, Bhima began to career with his uplifted mace, making many a beautiful circle and other kinds of manoeuvres. Sometimes adopting the right mandala, sometimes the left mandala, and sometimes the motion called Gomutraka.

Duryodhan now quickly strikes a heavy blow on Bhima & the force was such that a large quantity of blood came out of Bhima and he was stupefied. However Duryodhana, knew not that Bhima was so afflicted at that moment. Though deeply afflicted, Bhima sustained himself, summoning all his patience. Duryodhana, therefore, regarded him to be unmoved and ready to return the blow. It was for this that Duryodhana did not strike again. Having rested for a little while, Bhima rushed furiously near Duryodhana .

Now Duryodhana set his plans on the manoeuvre called Avasthana. He, therefore, desired to jump upwards, for crushing Bhima for a final blow .Bhima fully understood the intentions of his adversary. Rushing, therefore, at him, with a loud leonine roar, he fiercely hurled his mace at the thighs of Duryodhana as the latter had jumped up for baffling the first aim. That mace, endued with the force of the thunder and hurled by Bhima fractured the two handsome thighs of Duryodhana.
Thus struck by Bhima on his thighs, Duryodhana falls down heavily causing the earth to echo loudly.[/tscii:be7c5ad3c6]

Nakeeran

29th September 2006, 10:53 PM

[tscii:5636498cb1]AFTER THE FALL OF DURYODHANA

As Duryodhana fell down heavity , mortally wounded by Bhima’s blow on his thighs, the entire Pandavas filled with joy uttered loud shouts.

Bhima touched the head of Duryodhana with his left foot and jumped in joy . Seeing the act of Bhima, Yudhishtira stops him saying :

Bhima, You have accomplished ur vow today . Cease now . Do not crush his head with your foot. Do not act sinfully. Duryodhana is a king. Again, he is your kinsman. He is fallen. Ur conduct is not proper.
Duryodhana was the lord of eleven Akshauhinis of troops. He was the king of the Kurus. Do not, touch a king and a kinsman with your foot.
He has been struck down in battle. He is to be pitied in every respect. He deserves not to be insulted, for remember that he is a king. He is ruined. He is our brother.

Having loudly chided Bhima thus, Yudhishtir with voice choked in tears approaches Duryodhana and says :

Being driven by wicked people around you earlier, unfortunately for having listened to them , you had to pay a heavy price today. However, we have no one to blame as its all destiny.
Having fought a brave fight, you will be reaching the heaven , the highest honour but I will continue to suffer from the afflicted wives of you and your brothers and their curses.

Yudhishtira deeply afflicted with grief now, began to breath hard and was lamenting.

On seeing the way Duryodhana getting beaten on his thighs, Balarama became exceedingly angry.Raising his arms aloft , Balarama with his plough weapon, in a voice of deep sorrow, said in the midst of everyone :

fie on Bhima. Fie that in such a fair fight a blow had been struck below the navel .No limb below the navel should be struck. This is the precept laid down in treatises. This Bhima, however, is an ignorant wretch, unacquainted with the truths of treatises.
Saying this Balarama furiously rished towards Bhima with his plough weapon.[/tscii:5636498cb1]

Nakeeran

2nd October 2006, 09:48 PM

[tscii:a1498ef68c]KRISHNA RESCUES BHIMA FROM BALARAMA

While Balarama furiously rushed with his weapon towards Bhima, the entire Pandavas including Bhima feared disaster. However, a timely intervention by a rushing Krishna saves his life.

Interestingly, both Duryodhana and Bhima consider Sri Balarama as their Guru and with great reverence and Balarama has high regards for both and he considers them on par .

Krishna also explains the whole background and also tries to justify saying that Bhima had fulfilled his oath which he took in the hall of dice when Draupadhi was disrobed. He also justifies that for having done wicked acts earlier, Duryodhana deserves this punishment.

Even then Balarama was not convinced . He says :

Having unfairly slain Duryodhana , Bhima shall ever be reputed in this world as a crooked warrior. Duryodhana, on the other hand, shall obtain eternal blessedness.

A really upset Balarama thus leaves the Warfield and proceeds towards Dwarka.

Its quite interesting to note 2 different characters , having diametrically opposite views . While Sri Balarama was very particular that despite the evils done to Pandvas, when it comes to war, the rules will have to be followed religiously, Srikrishna had a different view altogether. You can even do adharma to restore Dharma.

Now Krishna speaks to Yudhishtira , who was down already with his head hung down and knew not what to do in consequence of his deep affliction.

Yudhishtira was still not convinced . He says :

I am not at all happy with the way Bhima reacted . Touching the head of the king with his foot, is not agreeable to me, nor am I glad at this extermination of my race. By guile were we always deceived by the sons of Dhritarashtra. Many were the cruel words they spoke to us. We were again exiled into the woods by them. Great is the grief on account of all those acts that is in Bhima’s heart. Reflecting on all this, I looked on with indifference.

Yudhishtira is one of the fascinating characters of this great epic ! He never goes beyond dharma and always loaded with emotions and passion for brotherhood. Yudhishtira always resprespected Duryodhana as a king and as a valiant fighter and true Kshatriya.[/tscii:a1498ef68c]

Nakeeran

2nd October 2006, 10:29 PM

[tscii:ee187a5fac]
The manner in which Duryodhana was beaten by Bhima didn’t get the approval of everyone present there. Some lauded the traits of Duryodhana while others praised Bhima. Some chided Bhima for the manner in which he hit on the thighs to defeat him. In short, the atmosphere was a bit disturbed

And seeing everyone in this mood, Krishna tries to comfort them by saying :

Dear all, its not proper to talk ill of a person when he is critically wounded and about to face his end now. And no need to glorify him also now as he had paid a heavy price for his past misdeeds and for having adopted adharma all these years. Duryodhana was a stupid person who fell into the hands of cunning and wicked people and is now destroyed. Lets all go now.

Hearing the words of Krishna , Duryodhana’s anger was uncontrollable. With great difficulty, he contracted his eyebrows and cast angry glances at Krishna. And now he started hitting Krishna hard with bitter words :

You are the son of Kamsa’s slave and you have shamelessly forgotten that you have no place to be amongst kings and you also speak like a shameless wretch.

You are talking about dharma and adharma ?? Did you follow dharma during the war ?

1. It was you who caused this unfairly act by reminding Bhima with a hint about breaking my thighs. Are u under the impression that I did not mark it when Arjuna acted under your advice , hinted at Bhima ?Upto that stage, the fight was equal . You , having caused the end of 1000s of kings and warriors by unfair methods and you have caused great carnage by your adharmic methods

2. You, unable to bear and tolerate / resist / withstand the onslaught of our Grandsire Bhishma and You devised methods to silence him by placing Shikandi in front of Arjuna and he also shamelessly shot arrows knowing fully well that Bhishma will not fight against Shikandi. It was no fight at all as Bhishma didn’t even take his bow against Shikandi. But for your ill mannered advice, you would never have brought down Bhishma

3. You shamelessly killed an elephant called Ashwathama, made Yudhishtira to utter a lie only to have the great Guru Drona to lay aside his weapons and . stop fighting. And when the Guru was in yoga posture, having given up everything, that wretched Drishtadyumna came cunningly and cut off his head.

4. The dart of Indira was preserved by Karna only for Arjuna. You , by your cunning methods put forward Gatotkacha and annihilated it.
Who is there that is more sinful than you ?

5. When Burisiravas was fighting Satyaki, under your instructions, this shameless Arjuna shot an arrow and cut his right hand when he was about to slay Satyaki. Again, right in front of your eyes, you watched Satyaki slaying Burisravas when he was in yoga posture having given up his arms.

6. You , by creating an illusion, covered the Sun and caused temprory darkness and while Saindhava Jayathratha was watching the course of the son, Arjuna cut off his head . Otherwise, you could never have reached close to him that evening. And Jayathratha was slain when he was offguard.

7. Karna had done a great feat for vanquishing Arjuna. You , by your methods baffled that snake headed arrow of Aswasena .

8. When again the wheel of Karna's car sank in mire and Karna was afflicted with calamity and almost vanquished on that account, when he was anxious to liberate his wheel, under your instruction, Arjuna slayed Karna .

IF YOU HAD REALLY FOUGHT WITH ME OR KARNA OR BHISMA OR DRONA BY FAIR METHODS, YOU WOULD NEVER EVEN CAN DREAM OF BEATING ME. BY ADOPTING THE MOST CROOKED AND UNRIGHTEOUS OF MEANS, YOU HAD CAUSED THE DEATH OF GREAT PERSONALITIES AND THUS WON THIS WAR SHAMELESSLY.

With immense pain , Duryodhana some managed to scream loudly at Krishna , the above words.

[/tscii:ee187a5fac]

Nakeeran

2nd October 2006, 11:03 PM

[tscii:8cca99268d]
Hearing the stunning words of Duryodhana, its Krishna’s turn to respond :

Duryodhana, why you are attributing your countless losses and defeat to me ? Due to your evil acts, 2 great men Bhishma and Drona had to die for you. Karna too had been killed for having imitated your behaviour.
Despite my personal visit and the request for a small piece of paternal share, you , acting in counsel with Shakuni, never agreed to our persuasions. You also gave poison to Bhima. You all tried to kill the Pandavas in that wax palace.
You all insulted Druapadhi in the rajyasabha when she was in no way connected with it. A solo Abimanyu was surrounded by you all and killed him when he was alone without an arrow.For having committed so many sinful acts, you derserve to be slain.
Having perpetrated all these sins, you thoroughly derserve to bear the consequences of your sinful acts now.

Even after hearing the response of Krishna, Duryodhana was not finished yet . He fires his balance now :

Krishna, I have studied, made presents according to the ordinance, governed the wide Earth with her seas, and stood over the heads of my foes. Who is there so fortunate as myself. That end again which is courted by Kshatriyas observant of the duties of their own order, death in battle, has become mine. Who, therefore, is so fortunate as myself? Human enjoyments such as were worthy of the very gods and such as could with difficulty be obtained by other kings, had been mine. Prosperity of the very highest kind had been attained by me.
With all my well-wishers, and my younger brothers, I am going to heaven, with unfading glory. As regards yourselves, with your purposes unachieved and torn by grief, live yet in this unhappy world shedding tears for having lost all your dear ones with grief .

Now something extrodinary and unexpected happened now .

Upon the conclusion of these words by Duryodhana, a thick shower of fragrant flowers fell from the sky. The Gandharvas played upon many charming musical instruments. The Apsaras in a chorus sang the glory of Duryodhana. The Siddhas uttered loud sound to the effect, Praise be to king Duryodhana. Fragrant and delicious breezes mildly blew on every side. All the quarters became clear and the firmament looked blue .

Seeing all these happen from the sky and this kind of worship and admiration to Duryodhana, the Pandavas headed by Krishna became ashamed. Hearing invisible beings cry out that Bhishma and Drona and Karna and Bhurishrava were slain unrighteously, they became afflicted with grief and wept in sorrow.

Seeing the Pandavas deeply filled with anxiety and grief, Krishna addressed them in a deep voice :

All of them were great car-warriors and exceedingly quick in the use of weapons. If you had put forth all your prowess, even then you all could never have slain them in battle by fighting fairly. Duryodhana also could never be slain in a fair encounter. The same is the case with all those mighty car-warriors headed by Bhishma. From desire of doing good to you, I repeatedly applied my powers of illusion and caused them to be slain by diverse means in battle. If I had not adopted such deceitful ways in battle, victory would never have been yours, nor kingdom, nor wealth. Those four were very high-souled warriors and regarded as Atirathas in the world. The very Regents of the Earth could not slay them in fair fight. Similarly, the son of Dhritarashtra, though fatigued when armed with the mace, could not be slain in fair fight by Yama himself armed with his bludgeon. You should not take it to heart that this foe of yours had been slain deceitfully. When the number of one's foes becomes great, then destruction should be effected by contrivances and means. The gods themselves, in slaying the Asuras, have trod the same way. That way, therefore, that path adopted by Gods can be followed by all.

We have been crowned with success. It is evening. We had better depart to our tents. Let us all take rest.

Now the Pandavas, still with shame for having seen the Gandharvas and others admiring Duryodhana, retired back to their respective tents.

I CONSIDER THIS PARTICULAR POST VERY IMPORTANT AS THE WORDS COME OUT FROM SRIKRISHNA HIMSELF ABOUT THE VALOUR AND GREATNESS OF THE KAURAVAS AND HE HIMSELF ACKNOWLEDGES THAT BY FAIR METHODS, NO ONE CAN WIN THE KAURAVAS AND IT WAS KRISHNA WHO HAD TO ADOPT UNFAIR METHODS TO ANNIHILATE THE KAURAVAS.

[/tscii:8cca99268d]

Nakeeran

3rd October 2006, 10:13 PM

[tscii:f9a7ee8896]After the Pandava army headed by Drishtadyumna and Shikandi retired to their tents, the 5 pandava brothers along with Krishna proceeded towards the camps of the Kauravas.

And they find empty tents and finally when the 6 reach the pavilion of Duryodhana, Krishna quickly tells Arjuna :
TAKE DOWN YOUR GANDIVA AND DISMOUNT IMMEDIATELY.
A puzzled Arjuna did as ordered by Krishna. After Arjuna got down from the chariot, Krishna released the horses and got down from the chariot. Interestingly now, the Anjaneya bannered flag disappeared also and in just few seconds like a flash, the ENTIRE CHARIOT BLAZED FORTH TO ASHES.

A stunned looking Arjuna and others were speechless and astonished by this development. Krishna replies to them :

Arjuna, this chariot , before had been consumed by diverse kinds of weapons. It was because I had sat upon it during battle that it did not fall into pieces. Already consumed by the energy of brahmastra and various other celestial weapons applied on you by Bhishma, Drona and Karna, . Now it has been reduced to ashes upon my abandoning it after attainment by you of your objectives.

Hearing the words of Krishna, Arjuna and others felt totally ashamed as their egos also got burnt . Arjuna was under the impression that it was his valour which singlehandedly won the war for Pandavas. Probably Almighty Krishna thought that he had to teach Arjuna some lessons as well !

Krishna now asks the 5 pandavas to remain out of their camps for the night . Anything that Krishna says was religiously followed by the 5 brothers and now also they followed his advice and went out of their camps and reached a sacred stream called Oghavati and slept there for the night.

Yudhishtira before this requests Krishna to pay a visit to Dirudhirashtra and Gandhari for obvious reasons. He was deeply worried about how the old man will react after losing his entire sons . Yudhishtira feared more about Gandhari as she had undergone severe ascetic austerities and can even consume the 3 worlds by her mere sight. Eventhough her sons had got the right treatment for their wickedness, a mother’s grief is something uncontrollable and un consolable and hence he thought Krishna is the best one to absorb the wrath of Gandhari.

Krishna now meets the couple who were grief stricken uncontrollably. However, Krishna quickly narrates the whole background which was the prime reason the mass destruction and added that its one’s destiny which had to go along with the nature. Now that his sons have died , both should treat the 5 pandavas as their children and forget and forgive the events of the war.

By now, the couple partially reached a stage of reconciliation.

Krishna suddenly realized by intuition , the evil that was meditated
by Aswathama . Rising in haste , Krishna quickly described the impending disaster to the Pandavas through Aswathama . A deeply worried Dirudhirashtra and Gandhari both requested Krishna to rush quickly to save the pandavas.[/tscii:f9a7ee8896]

Nakeeran

4th October 2006, 12:26 AM

[tscii:8d1a1dd01b]ASHWATHAMA BEING MADE THE FINAL COMMANDER

Meanwhile Ashwathama , Kripa and Kritavarma got the entire description of Duryodhana – Bhima fight through their messengers. On hearing this, they rushed to see Duryodhana and cried loudly on seeing his plight.

Holding Duryodhana’s head on his lap, Ashwathama flamed up in anger like the fire that is seen at the universal destruction. Overwhelmed with rage, he squeezed his hand and addressed Duryodhana with tears :

My father was killed by those wretches with cruel contrivance. That shameful act is yet to go away from my memory and I am pained and heartbroken to see you also getting defeated by deceipt and wicked methods . King Duryodhana, now listen to these words of mine .
I utter, swearing by truth itself, by all my acts of piety, all my gifts, my religion, and the religious merits I have won. I shall today, in the very presence of Krishna, despatch all the Pancalas, by all means in my power, to the abode of Yama. Please grant me permission.

An immensely pleased Duryodhana now requests Kripa to bring some water.

Now Duryodhana takes a sankalpa :

Let the son of Drona, be at my command installed as generalissimo, if U wish to do me the good. At the command of the king, even a Brahmana may fight, specially one that has adopted Kshatriya practices. Those learned in the scriptures say this.

Duryodhana with blood in his hands and water takes up the sankalpa and authorizes Ashwathama to be his final commander.

Leaving him alone , the trio move towards the thick forest for further plans.[/tscii:8d1a1dd01b]

Raghu

4th October 2006, 08:10 PM

NakeerarE

When the Pandavas along wth Lord Krishna goes to Dhiritharatchasa & Gandari's tents to console them, Dhiritharatchasa will come to Hug Bheema, Lord Krishna will suddenly interrupt and give a big statute, which was as Big as Bheema for Dhiritharatchasa to hug, once Dhiritharatchasa hugs it, the Statue will crack into 1000's of particles, Bhema & the Pandavas will be stunned by this, Krishna will explain that Dhiritharatchasa so angry with bheema 4 slaying His DEAREST son that is y Dhiritharatchasa wanted to kill Bheema by hugging him!

Nakeeran

4th October 2006, 08:37 PM

Nakeeran

4th October 2006, 10:04 PM

[tscii:d36b812a0d]The trio now inside a dense forest, sit together for plan to slay the Pandavas.

While a tired Kripa and Krirtavarma tried to sleep for sometime, Ashwathama was breathing restlessly with fury. Burning with rage, he could not get a wink of slumber & was roaming around . Now he sees a banyan tree covered with crows resting for the night. Suddenly an Owl appeared and slew a large number of those sleeping crows. The Owl also tore the wings of some and cut off the heads of others with his sharp talons and broke the legs of many.

Seeing this, Ashwathama got a flash and instantly decided to apply the same approach on the sleeping Pandavas. He self justified himself by analyzing the manner in which the great warriors like Bhishma, Drona , Karna and Duryodhana were slayed by Pandavas and decides to give tit for tat.

When he expressed his intentions, the other 2 filled with shame refused point blank. However, when Ashwathama gave a sequential account of the whole background in which the giants were felled and further tells them that if they are not interested , he will complete the task alone , the other 2 also join hands with him .

THERE IS A SCHOOL OF THOUGHT HERE THAT LORD SHIVA GAVE A BOON TO HIM AND ALSO A SWORD AND MADE HIM INVINCIBLE FOR THE NIGHT. SINCE I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS, I LEAVE TO OTHERS TO GIVE THEIR EVIDENCE.

Aswathama first storms into Drishtadyumna’s tent and with a kick wakes him up. As Drishtadyumna was about to rise from his bed, Aswathama seized him by his head and gave a thundering blow on it. In a flash, he kills him . Thus ends the life of the commander of Pandavas whose birth was destined to kill Drona . Aswathama takes a sweet revenge and feels happy having killed his Father’s killer.

Hearing the shouts of Drishtadyumna, the Panchala warriors tried to resist him but Aswathama fires Rudrastra and kills everyone instantly.

He next kills Uttamauja while he was fast asleep.

Yudhamanyu woke up hearing some noise and tried to attack but also gets killed ruthlessly.

After this, Aswathama quickly went to all the tents and kills the warriors and kings who were all deep asleep.

He kills everyone using his powerful sword.

Alarmed by the noise , the sons of Draupadhi try to resist Aswathama now.

But taking up his sword, he kills Prativindhya, Sutasoma, Shatanika ,Shrutakarma, and Shrutakirti, the young princes born to the pandavas.

Ashwathama next pounces on a panicking Shikandi and kills him with his sword again.

At the noise made, hundreds and thousands of Pandava bowmen in the camp awoke from their slumbers. Ashvatthama cut off the legs of some, and the hips of others, and pierced some in their flanks

Awaked by the noise, many warriors, afflicted still with sleep and fear, and with senses still under a cloud, ran hither and thither. All those who tried to run away were killed by Kripa and Kritavarma who stood at the peripheral of the pandavar camp.

Finally, after causing this carnage, the three set ablaze the pandava camp also.

Before half the night was over, Aswathama and the other 2 despatch the large host of the Pandavas unto Yama's abode.

The Pandavas, the panchalas, the matsayas and the Somaskas all were vanquished thus.

When morning dawned, Ashvatthama leaves the place and quickly moves to see Duryodhana.

Duryodhana , almost senseless, his life was about to ebb away. He was vomiting blood at intervals, with downcast eyes.

Aswathama thundered to Duryodhana :

O dear King Duryodhana , we have killed the entire pandava army including Drishtadyumna, Shikandi , the 5 princes and the entire group except the 5 brothers. From the Pandava side, only 7 are alive – the 5 brothers, Krishna and Satyaki.The Pandavas are now childless.

Duryodhana was immensely pleased hearing this and said :
That which neither Bhishma, nor Drona, nor Karna could achieve, had been achived by you 3 today. I am leaving this world happily now.

Soon, Duryodhana breathes his last.

The three repeatedly embraced Duryodhana , cried loudly and gazed steadfastly on him. They then ascended their cars.

THUS ENDS THE LIFE OF DURYODHANA , WHO SINCE CHILDHOOD ANTAGONISED THE PANDAVAS AND WHO WAS TIME AND AGAIN POISONED BY HIS UNCLE SHAKUNI .
[/tscii:d36b812a0d]

Nakeeran

4th October 2006, 11:46 PM

[tscii:05c6be460c]Yudhishtira was deeply aggrieved with sorrow on hearing the carnage. He says :

Alas, having vanquished the enemy , we ourselves have been vanquished in the end and the vanquished have become victorious now.
How can I regard my victory as a victory? In reality, I have been doubly defeated by the foe. All those who had been with us all these years have been killed. What is left with me now to celebrate and enjoy ?
And what answer can I give to Draupathi who is childless and brotherless now ?

Draupadhi was overpowered with sorrow and grief. She tunders to the 5 brothers now:

Is there anyone who can slay Aswathama and render justice to the humongous loss that I have suffered now ?

The pandavas search everywhere and finally trace Aswathama hiding in Sage Vyasa’s hermitage and try to pounce on him.

Seeing them, Aswathama now takes a blade of grass, chants divine mantras and converts it into a deadly weapon called BRAHMASIRAS.

And he let is loose by saying : FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PANDAVAS.

Seeing that deadly weapon coming like a big fire, Krishna quickly asks Arjuna to fire another of it to counter and Arjuna does it immediately.

Both weapons blazed with fierce flames resembling a huge sphere of fire. Numerous peals of thunder were heard.Thousands of meteors fell and all living creatures trembled with fear.

Fearing the negative consequences of the 2 said weapons, Vyasa and Naradha presented themselves before the 2 and neutralized the energy and force.

Under request from both Rishis and Krishna, Arjuna now withdrew his weapon by chanting the appropriate mantras.

However, Aswathama did not withdraw his weapon. He said :
Under fear of my life and also for having falsely slain Duryodhana , I fired this weapon to destroy the pandavas. I dare not, however, withdraw it now. Having inspired this irresistible and celestial weapon with the energy of fire, I let it off for the destruction of the Pandavas. Contrived for the destruction of the Pandavas, that weapon, therefore, will take away the lives of all the sons of Pandu.

Now Vyasa pleads to Aswathama to withdraw saying that the impact of this weapon is such that the entire region will suffer from drought for 12 years and will be without rains.Atleast for the sake of doing good to living beings, please withdraw this.

Now Aswathama :

I possess a precious gem on my head and due to this , I am being protected from any enemy . I cannot by any means , part with it. I shall now redirect the course of this Brahmasiras to the womb of Abimanyu so that the Pandava dynasty will have its end.

As the weapon changes its course towards the womb of Uttara, Abimanyu’s wife, Krishna , through his divine grace, saves it and the kid inside it survives.

A furious Krishna now curses Aswathama :

All wise men know you for a coward and a sinful wretch. Always engaged in sinful acts, you are the slayer of children. For this reason, you must have to bear the fruit of your sins. For 3,000 years you shall wander over this earth, without a companion and without being able to talk with anyone. Alone and without anybody by your side, you shall wander through diverse countries and you shall have no place in the midst of men.

Aswathama now realizes his sins and hands over his gem to the Pandavas and proceeds towards forest.( he no longer finds that gem worthwhile )

And the gem was handed over to Draupadhi who gets partially comforted now and she passes it over to Yudhishtira saying that he deserved the best amongst everyone in the world.

THUS ENDS THE NARRATION OF THE GREAT MAHARABATH WAR [/tscii:05c6be460c]

Nakeeran

4th October 2006, 11:53 PM

kannannn

5th October 2006, 12:32 AM

Raghu

5th October 2006, 02:52 PM

THERE IS A SCHOOL OF THOUGHT HERE THAT LORD SHIVA GAVE A BOON TO HIM AND ALSO A SWORD AND MADE HIM INVINCIBLE FOR THE NIGHT. SINCE I AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS, I LEAVE TO OTHERS TO GIVE THEIR EVIDENCE.

Never heard of this at all. :roll: :shock:

Now let me narrate this episode according to Raamanand Saagar's Krishna,

Lord Krishna will take the Pandavas, and Draupadi to conduct Rituals to Maha Ishwar, by Doing some pooja to ShivaLinga, as Arjuna is a great Devotee of Maheshwar! But Lord Krishna will know Aswathama's plot , hence he will take them to ShivaPooja, in the mean time. Aswathma along with Kritivarma sn Kiruparchariya will go to the tent where the Pandavs sibblings sleep, and Aswathama will slay one by one by Cutting their head with sword while they Sleep, but he never knew he killed the Pandavas children rather than his aim , the Pandavas. Shikandi will also be slayed by Aswathama in the process, he will be joyed with happiness thinking that he had slayed the Pandavas, he will then proceed towards the Lake , where Duryodhana would be about to leave this world,and tell him the news, Duryodhana would be so happy about this and would leave this world!

Raghu

5th October 2006, 02:55 PM

NakeerarE

Exacellent work, hats off!

One need such great patience to do such wonderful postings.

Regarding logics in this GREATEST epic, i would like to discuss about DHARMA Vs ADHARMA
r u ready?

Raghu

5th October 2006, 03:00 PM

NakeerarE

As far as i Know, Bheema will take the GEM stone of Aswathama by Force, Aswathama would never hand it him self,

Nakeeran

5th October 2006, 06:31 PM

Nakeeran, I've been an avid reader of your narration of the war. That you have kept going for so long is a feat in itself. Thank you for that. I just have one question. What were the sources you consulted for your narration?

Thanks Kannan :D

Well, I went through many like - Kisari Mohan Ganguly's version, Villibaratham , the tamil version, Rajaji's mahabarath ( especially for the wonderful English ) , the TV serials of B.R.Chopra Mahabarath and Ramanand Sagar's Srikrishna, Vysampayana etc.

I also had many sessions with a person in Sanskrit college , Chennai who enlightened me a lot

I also went through the websites of Iskon

But certain aspects are still not clear to me despite the multiple searches like :

1. Aswathama being granted a boon by Lord Shiva on the 18th day
2. Karna about to kill Arjuna on the evening of day 15

If someone can clarify on the above 2 , it will give a complete picture

Bye

Nakeeran

5th October 2006, 06:33 PM

NakeerarE

Exacellent work, hats off!

One need such great patience to do such wonderful postings.

Regarding logics in this GREATEST epic, i would like to discuss about DHARMA Vs ADHARMA
r u ready?

Raghuji,

I am not a philosopher to argue on this pls :D but if the argument is going to be on the manner in which the Pandavas eliminated the Kauravas, well, I am ready for this. :D

Nakeeran

5th October 2006, 07:34 PM

[quote="Raghu Aswathma along with Kritivarma sn Kiruparchariya will go to the tent where the Pandavs sibblings sleep, and Aswathama will slay one by one by Cutting their head with sword while they Sleep, but he never knew he killed the Pandavas children rather than his aim , the Pandavas. Shikandi will also be slayed by Aswathama in the process, he will be joyed with happiness thinking that he had slayed the Pandavas, he will then proceed towards the Lake , where Duryodhana would be about to leave this world,and tell him the news, Duryodhana would be so happy about this and would leave this world![/quote]

Raghuji,

I doubt this version because many books mention as follows :

Aswathama goes back to Duryodhana and narrates that ALL HAVE BEEN KILLED EXCEPT THE 7 indicating the 5 brothers, Krishna and Satyaki

May be other hubbers can clarify on this pls.

Raghu

5th October 2006, 08:29 PM

NakeerarE

what books are you referring 2?

Pls b specific , can i get thiese books in London ?

Thanks

Nakeeran

5th October 2006, 09:27 PM

Nakeeran

5th October 2006, 09:45 PM

Dear All

For the benefit of everyone , please check the link below :

http://www.hindubooks.org/books_by_rajaji/mahabharata/index.htm

Its the great Chakravarthy Sri Rajaji's write up on Mahabaratha .
I believe it was quite popular 30 years before and appeared in Kalki magazine.

After comparing this version with other bigger versions, I realized that this is an excellent capture of the GIANT OF AN EPIC in a decent crisp form.

At times, Rajaji adds his thoughts also which adds more flavour to the epic .

Above all, Rajaji's command over English is something astonishing :D

The same link can be used to read Rajaji's Ramayana also :D

My parents paid money to buy this book some 30 years back but now its in web. :D

Raghu

6th October 2006, 07:20 PM

NakeerarE

what books are you referring 2?

Pls b specific , can i get thiese books in London ?

Thanks

I suggest you read Kisari Mohan Ganguly version .

Mann , terrific description of the great epic.

If you wish to have a crisp version with fantastic english on it, please read Sri Rajaji's Vyasar virundhu.

I am not sure whether the above are available in London.

Thanks NakeerarE,

It is rather dissapointed that not hubbers have apreciated your excellent efforts, any way, you have done a wonderful job dude, hats off.

Reg. Dharma Vs Adharma, I will start on Monday .. :-)

pradheep

6th October 2006, 08:12 PM

Nakkeera and Raghu and others, continue the good job!

Sudhaama

7th October 2006, 01:41 AM

Dear all,

Sometime back , it was a God sent opportunity for me to narrate the war sequence and it finally ended today.

To be honest, at various stages, I found it very difficult to carry on as it was not easy to compress the great 18 day war to readable text .
I almost gave up at times but divine help forced me not to give up and complete the task.

Thanks to you all for being patient and tolerant with me all these days by being a silent observers and passive readers.

Now I wish to continue further and take the thread up to the logical end, I mean , the following sequences after the war and finally until Krishna leaves for heaven and the Pandavas attaining mukthi.

Anyone wish to hear from me on this pls ?

Alternatively, we can also exchange our thoughts now on the war events and any controversial issue can be analyzed threadbare so that we are all enlightened.

The objective is to share everyone's knowledge for mutual benefit :D

My Dear Mr Nakkeera,

Splendid.!! .. I am one of several anxious Readers of your beautiful presentation of everyday war, analytically upto minute detail.

I am able to imagine your enormous efforts and the extra-ordinary pains taken to shape it... by gathering from various sources.

But on seeing some of your informations... I have never heard of anywhere... I doubt whether they are authentic.

Even the TV Mahabharatha is not wholly authentic... being a combination of Fiction with Truth. The Author admits in the Title that it has been compiled from several Mahabharathas of various Indian-Languages...

Most of the Regional Language versions are the deviations here and there... from the Original Vyasa-Bharatha... suiting to the authors' own imaginations.

However You have presented enough SEEDS for future discussions....in a VERY VALUABLE SENSE....

... towards a HEALTHY DIRECTION... and ULTIMATE ANSWERS AND SOLUTIONS...

..On many many Controversial points and Unravelled justifications

... FOR THE ADVANTAGE OF HUMANITY.... facing perplexing personalities.

Mahabharatha... in brief... is an EPIC OF REALITY.!!!

You and Others... Please continue.
.

bok

8th October 2006, 02:40 PM

I appreciate you exellent efforts dear Nakeeran!
Thank you very much!

Nakeeran

9th October 2006, 02:09 PM

Thanks to Mr. Sudhama ( whom I consider as Shri Bhishma of this thread ) , Pradeep, Raghuji and Bok

Thanks to all who have been patiently reading the narrations without digression.

Sudhama Sir,

I am looking forward to interesting debates on the war .
Though I mentioned that I watched the tele serials, I was not influenced by them as I knew well that there will be lots of melodrama they insert to add more spice to it.

For instance, B.R.Chopra showed that Karna was about to kill Arjuna by the end of day 15 but he lets him .
This I had cleary mentioned that there was no such incident being quoted in any of the authentic books .

I wish you and Mr. Badri enlighten us with facts on such incidents.

Raghuji had already mentioned last week about Dharma vs Adharma.

Once all these debates / discussions are complete, I wish to resume the write ups on what happened after the war -----} to the end

I am awaiting Raghuji's post for the day :D

nilavupriyan

10th October 2006, 05:28 PM

nakeera...best work ever in hub!

Raghu

12th October 2006, 09:47 PM

NakeerarE

I am quite busy at the moment, will post soon.

Take care..

bok

22nd October 2006, 09:04 PM

Where are you?

Surya

16th November 2006, 12:45 AM

Guys,
I have a ?.

This might've been posted before...let me know if it was..

but in what book, and section of Mahabharath does the Curse Of Urvashi on Arjuna which turns him into an eunuch for the period of one year take place?

Thanks! :D

Raghu

16th November 2006, 03:49 PM

Sudhaama

16th November 2006, 06:37 PM

.
- Araiththa Maavaiyae Araippadhaa...?

Dear Friends... We are now in the Second Chapter of different approach on Mahabharatha...

... to discuss on the reasoning behind the overall-content of this Great epic...

...either based on Character by Character or by anyone aspect of Qualities or Propensities relevant to all Characters...

...for which we have enough supporting points already posted here..

On such an aspect and trend of the Second chapter...I have highlighted .. before the commencement of elaboration of the day to day accounts of War...

..Very well narrated by Mr Nakkeeran... which needs to be touched upon at every stage of conclusion.

Such a healthy approach towards this Great subject of Thought-provoking sense for our Meaningful life...

... especially relevant to our present day fast-changing time...

... peculiar trend of reasoning by the Contemporary Society...

... Sub-human persons occupying powerful seats...

.. resulting in DRASTICAL BEAT OUT... of the Conventional Righteousness...

.. and such other UNANSWERABLE QUESTIONS...Yet have Well-convincing answers in Mahabharatha.

Now why not we take up one Character BHEESHMA... Overall from start to his end...

...who was the Route-cause...AT EVERY STAGE... for the unending dispute and ultimately war amongst the Brothers?

All these meaningful points can come out from discussions... cohesively Thought -provoking ..

..By different... BRAINS AND HEARTS...

...which can be Purposeful as well as...VERY INTERESTING... for All .!!!
.

bok

17th November 2006, 01:22 PM

bok

17th November 2006, 02:31 PM

So...
BHEESHMA (the Terrible). Good choice!
Let start from the very beginning!
"These are the thirty-three gods (the eight Vasus, the eleven Rudras, the twelve Adityas, Prajapati, and Vashatkara)..."
"One day the celestials had assembled together and were worshipping Brahman. Many royal sages and king Mahabhisha also were present on the spot. And Ganga, the queen of rivers, also came there to pay her adorations to the Grandsire. And her garments white as the beams of the
moon was displaced by the action of the wind. And as her person became exposed, the celestials bent down their heads. But the royal sage Mahabhisha rudely stared at the queen of rivers. And Mahabhisha was for this cursed by Brahman, who said, 'Wretch, as thou hast forgotten thyself at the sight of Ganga, thou shalt be re-born on earth. But thou shall again and again attain to these regions. And she, too, shall be born in the world of men and shall do thee injuries. But when thy wrath shall be provoked, thou shalt then be freed from my curse.'
"Vaisampayana continued, 'King Mahabhisha then recollecting all the monarchs and ascetics on earth, wished to be born as son to Pratipa of great prowess. And the queen of rivers, too, seeing king Mahabhisha lose his firmness, went away, thinking of him wishfully. And on her way, she saw those dwellers in heaven, the Vasus, also pursuing the same path. And the queen of rivers beholding them in the predicament, asked them, 'Why look ye so dejected? Ye dwellers in heaven, is everything right with you?' Those celestials, the Vasus, answered her, saying, 'O queen of rivers, we have been cursed, for a venial fault, by the illustrious Vasishtha in anger. The foremost of excellent Rishis, Vasishtha, had been engaged in his twilight adorations and seated as he was, he could not be seen by us. We crossed him in ignorance. Therefore, in wrath he hath cursed us, saying, Be ye born among men!' It is beyond our power to frustrate what hath been said by that utterance of Brahma. Therefore, O river, thyself becoming a human female make us the Vasus, thy children. O amiable one, we are unwilling to enter the womb of any human female.' Thus addressed, the queen of rivers told them, 'Be it so and asked them, 'On earth, who is that foremost of men whom ye will make your father?'
"The Vasus replied, 'On earth, unto Pratipa shall be born a son, Santanu, who will be a king of world-wide fame.' Ganga then said, 'Ye celestials, that is exactly my wish which ye sinless ones have expressed. I shall, indeed, do good to that Santanu. That is also your desire as just expressed.' The Vasus then said, 'It behoveth thee to throw thy children after birth, into the water, so that, O thou of three courses (celestial, terrestrial, and subterranean) we may be rescued soon without having to live on earth for any length of time.' Ganga then answered, 'I shall do what ye desire. But in order that his intercourse with me may not be entirely fruitless, provide ye that one son at least may live.' The Vasus then replied, 'We shall each contribute an eighth part of our respective energies With the sum thereof, thou shall have one son according to thy and his wishes. But this son shall not begat any children on earth. Therefore, that son of thine endued with great energy, shall be childless.'
"The Vasus, making this arrangement with Ganga, went away without Waiting to the place they liked.''
Once upon a time I came across one article named " Prison for god." (About Bheeshma). Will tell one day.

Sudhaama

16th February 2007, 10:41 PM

.
. BLUNDERS of BHEESHMA... at various Stages...

... which mainly caused Mahabharatha.?

.

Raghu

27th February 2007, 04:03 PM

Dear Sudhamma SIr

welcome back, after a Long time, this thread will be enlightened indeed!!!

Can some one please tell me, why 'Pasupathastra' attained by the pennance of Arjuna towards Maheshwar was NEVER used in the war??

Can some one pls verify the above statement and explain why it was not used?, Many thanks

Nakeeran

27th February 2007, 05:07 PM

Raghu

27th February 2007, 10:28 PM

Raghuji

Arjuna never applied Pasupatha Astra during the war .
To his conscience, he always kept DIVINE WEAPONS , not to be applied at any point of time.
This was his principle, I believe.

Even the counter Brama siras which he fired against Aswathama ( after the war ) was to neutralize the bramasiras fired by Aswathama

NekeeraR Ji

But , in Mahabharth it is said that Lord Krishna deliberatley made Partha not 2 use Pasupathstra cos of it's pwers to Destory the entire Cosmos!

This is also mentioned in Shivpurana,....

Nakeeran

27th February 2007, 10:48 PM

Raghuji

Pasupatha Astra was never used in Mahabarath war.

Infact, well before the war, when Sri Parasurama was fighting at the behest of Amba , Bhishma was about to use it but it was prevented by an anonymous call from the skies .

Your query :

The same Arjuna also worshipped Lord SHiva and obtained that divine astra , only to apply it under extrodinary circumstances.
Even while fighiting against Karna, he didnt apply.

Raghu

29th March 2007, 04:09 PM

Can some one tell me what happened to Vidura aftter the war?

bok

31st March 2007, 11:37 AM

Can some one tell me what happened to Vidura aftter the war?
I believe he went to the forest.

Raghu

2nd April 2007, 02:23 PM

Can some one tell me what happened to Vidura aftter the war?
I believe he went to the forest.

Ok, thanks

leosimha

16th April 2007, 04:50 PM

Nakeerar avare,

Wonderful, I didn't know such a thread exists on Indian History & Culture. Well, this is a story reading thread. I enjoy reading historics.

leosimha

16th April 2007, 04:53 PM

Can some one tell me what happened to Vidura aftter the war?

Raghu,

Vidura took sanyasam and went to the forest in Nirvanam. I believe it to be before the war itself but am not sure.

But after the war, I remember Kunti devi, Gandhari and Dhritharashtran taking up sanyas and moving to the forest to join Vidura in tapas.

Raghu

17th April 2007, 07:52 PM

Nakeerar avare,

Wonderful, I didn't know such a thread exists on Indian History & Culture. Well, this is a story reading thread. I enjoy reading historics.

Thank you, Have you read my other threads like 'Ramayan -another great epic', and '63-Gnyanmarhal',...etc in this section ?

leosimha

18th April 2007, 01:28 PM

smith1

31st July 2007, 06:23 PM

Nakeeran,

No praise can be too high for Ur posts on the day-to-day happenings of the mahabharatha war.

It was a monumental effort on ur part.

Splendid work. Congratulations.

Please keep up the good work.

Raghu

6th August 2007, 02:13 PM

can some one pls tell me, what excatly happend after the pandavas escaped from the candle palace? :confused2:

Nakeeran

6th August 2007, 02:18 PM

can some one pls tell me, what excatly happend after the pandavas escaped from the candle palace? :confused2:

Hi Raghuji

U mean, the palace of wax ?

If yes :

They all were roaming in disguise until they found a village where a wicked asura was eating one member of a family everday. As per his conditions, one person should be sent to him everyday for food & he will eat him. Bhima bailed the villagers out by killing that Asur.
Then they continued to live in disguise until the swayamvar of Draupadhi was announced. Arjuna ( along with Bhima ) in disguise appeared in that hall & won that event.
Hope you know what happened after that .

Vartaaaaaaaa.
:D

Vaz

7th August 2007, 01:50 PM

Hi Raghu, Nakeeran, Sudhaama Sir, Viggop, Badri, Hari Krishnan Sir
and all the others that have well contributed to this thread...

Finally I have finished reading the 73 pages of this thread! And again is it happened with the Ramayana thread most of my questions have been answered.

Mainly three things kept coming to my mind whenever I was thinking about Mahabharatha:
1. Gambling:
How can a king lose a kingdom by gambling? Is it fair for the people ? For his family?
--> Those questions were well answered by Badri sir saying that one of the purpose of Mahabharatha was to show what gambling could lead to....

2. Draupadi:
My second question (simply put) is: How can 5 brothers marry one woman? This is quite disturbing for me... Would anyone please help me on this? Sri Rama's Avatar emphasized the 1 man/1 woman concept... this is happening after Ramayanam... So how can Sri Krishna allow/support this?

3. Dharma/Adharma during the war:
Krishna pushed the Pandavas to defeat their opponenets using in some cases "unfair means"... Is it normal for a God to do so?
--> Here also I think I got the answer... "adharma has to be fought using adharma" as even Sri Krishna did it. But what a contrast with Sri Rama....

Ramayanam and Mahabharatha are quite contrasting on such few points...

Around page 54 of this thread, Pizzalot raised a few points... For some of them Badri Sir answered them but there are still some left to be answered... Can some knowledgeable person help us by answering those points?

Raghu

7th August 2007, 02:06 PM

Vaz

Give me some time, i can answer 1 & 3 but 2 that puzzles me as well, in fact i find this the MOST disgusting thing ever, yet the pandavas are HAILED like anything

Vaz

7th August 2007, 02:32 PM

Hi Raghu,

No probs... I will wait for your post!
Thank you again for creating such intersting topics!

Addition to my questions regarding Draupadi:
In our culture a brother's wife is supposed to be the equivalent of a mother... Is this concept recent, i.e. it was not the case during Mahabharatha?

Please Sudhaama Sir, Badri Sir, Hari Krishnan Sir... could any of you enlighten us regarding the whole Draupadi "issue"?

Vasanth.

Raghu

7th August 2007, 03:06 PM

>>1. Gambling:
How can a king lose a kingdom by gambling? Is it fair for the people ? For his family? <<

Yudishtar agreed to every conditions of Shakuni maama, so as LAW ABIDING king, he had NO choice but to OBEY Shakuni maama. but the MORAL behind this is GAMBLING is ADDICTIVE, one will loose his mind and loose everything, this is what happened to PANDAVAS!!!

Yudhishtar gambled everything to win, so that he can KEEP his pride, and he failed

lessons learnt : STAY AWAY FROM ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES and ACTS, such as TOXINS
(alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine...etc) and acts like GAMBLING etc etc.....

Raghu

7th August 2007, 03:16 PM

>>3.Here also I think I got the answer... "adharma has to be fought using adharma" as even Sri Krishna did it. But what a contrast with Sri Rama.... <<

No, Sri Ram also used adharma , he killed Vali by standing behind him and shooting an arrow, this is YUTH ADHARMA

correct GOURAVAS could not be DEFEATED by following the terms and Conditions of a WAR, when they had WARRIORS like KARNA, PITHAMA BHISHMA, DRONARCHARYA, while the PANDAVAS had ONLY ARJUNA, the entire PANDAVA clan dependent hugley on PARTHA

GOURAVAS never used any adharma EXCEPT the killing of ABHIMANYU

Vaz

7th August 2007, 08:54 PM

Hi Raghu,

Thanks for your reply...

Regarding Sri Ram killing Vaali from behind I remember that a fitting reply was given by Sri Ram on why he did it...
So I feel that somehow it has been justified...
Can someone provide us with the answers Sri Rama gave to Vaali?

But in Mahabharatham, maybe that shouldn't be our approach... i.e. find justifications for the Adharmic ways that were used by the Pandavas... maybe those shouldn't be considered as individual events but rather part of the global picture to achieve a Greater Good...

So our approach itself should be different based on whether we are looking at the Ramayana or at the Mahabharatha.
Each individual event from the Ramayana can be "justified"
whereas the same cannot be said of the Mahabharatha except if we look at it from a global perspective (Pandavas had to win the war whatever the cost)....

In Ramayana the target and the way to achieve it are important whereas in Mahabharatha only the target is important whatever the means...

Raghu

7th August 2007, 09:44 PM

Hi Vaz,

As and when you have some time, please go through this, thanks

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4611

Vaz

9th August 2007, 02:21 PM

Hi Raghu,

have started to go through it...

So nobody to enlighten us on the Draupadi "issue"??

Vasanth.

Nakeeran

9th August 2007, 02:53 PM

[tscii:d97b1ebb84]Vaz,

Obviously , Draupadhi getting married to 5 men is the most disgusting thing to happen & probably the worst precedent set in the great epic Mahabaratha. Whatever may be the reasons behind it , its absolute nonsense & adding fuel to the fire, the instructions came from another woman >>> Kunti , the mother of Pandavas !!
Wonder how Srikrishna was watching all these nonsense.

I don’t see any rationale behind this act of Pandavas. Its an insult on womanhood
[/tscii:d97b1ebb84]

Raghu

9th August 2007, 03:07 PM

[tscii:5faa0c7810]Vaz,

Obviously , Draupadhi getting married to 5 men is the most disgusting thing to happen & probably the worst precedent set in the great epic Mahabaratha. Whatever may be the reasons behind it , its absolute nonsense & adding fuel to the fire, the instructions came from another woman >>> Kunti , the mother of Pandavas !!
Wonder how Srikrishna was watching all these nonsense.

I don’t see any rationale behind this act of Pandavas. Its an insult on womanhood
[/tscii:5faa0c7810]

totally agreed...

I feel this MORE disgusting than what thutchathanan did to draupadhi !!!!

Badri

10th August 2007, 05:28 AM

[tscii:322fd3d2c7]Vaz,

Obviously , Draupadhi getting married to 5 men is the most disgusting thing to happen & probably the worst precedent set in the great epic Mahabaratha. Whatever may be the reasons behind it , its absolute nonsense & adding fuel to the fire, the instructions came from another woman >>> Kunti , the mother of Pandavas !!
Wonder how Srikrishna was watching all these nonsense.

I don’t see any rationale behind this act of Pandavas. Its an insult on womanhood
[/tscii:322fd3d2c7]

oh, so Polygamy is not disgusting? One man getting married to many women is ok? Arjuna was married to so many women, and yet none of you have stated that as being denigrating to womanhood!

Nakeeran, I didn't think you would such a male chauvinist?

In fact, polygamy would be an insult to womanhood! While the woman remained married to just one man, the man had the liberty of marrying several!

In fact, if anything, Polyandry was some sort of women empowerment, breaking the traditional mold of being treated as a mere object to be enjoyed and the more powerful the man, the more such objects he could have!

Both are equally to be denounced, if you come to that! But before pronouncing judgment, please don't confuse yourself with time. Please remember, the Mahabhartha did not happen in the 21st Century, and is therefore not bound by the same set of laws that we are used to.

Nakeeran

10th August 2007, 08:41 AM

[tscii:890bb0f33a]Vaz,

Obviously , Draupadhi getting married to 5 men is the most disgusting thing to happen & probably the worst precedent set in the great epic Mahabaratha. Whatever may be the reasons behind it , its absolute nonsense & adding fuel to the fire, the instructions came from another woman >>> Kunti , the mother of Pandavas !!
Wonder how Srikrishna was watching all these nonsense.

I don’t see any rationale behind this act of Pandavas. Its an insult on womanhood
[/tscii:890bb0f33a]

oh, so Polygamy is not disgusting? One man getting married to many women is ok? Arjuna was married to so many women, and yet none of you have stated that as being denigrating to womanhood!

Nakeeran, I didn't think you would such a male chauvinist?

In fact, polygamy would be an insult to womanhood! While the woman remained married to just one man, the man had the liberty of marrying several!

In fact, if anything, Polyandry was some sort of women empowerment, breaking the traditional mold of being treated as a mere object to be enjoyed and the more powerful the man, the more such objects he could have!

Both are equally to be denounced, if you come to that! But before pronouncing judgment, please don't confuse yourself with time. Please remember, the Mahabhartha did not happen in the 21st Century, and is therefore not bound by the same set of laws that we are used to.

Leave aside whether I am a male chauvnist or etc ....

I dont think there was any precedent to that Draupadhi issue even during Mahabarath or Ramayan days. Her case was the first & unique of its kind ! :shock: No way, it can be justified . :evil:

P_R

10th August 2007, 08:56 AM

Veteran Malayalam writer MT Vasudevan Nair's beautiful novel randamuzham is a retelling of the Mahabaratha from the perspective of Bheema. It will be enjoyed if one grants the author his artistic liberty.

There he subtly hints that the Kunti very much new that it was girl they had brought home when she asked the Pandavas to 'share'. MT paints Kunti as someone for whom winning the kingdom and keeping it united was the paramount agenda. And this was the reason why she got all of them to marry Draupadi.

The novel is a poignant retelling of the highly emotional and sensitive Bhima, who is underrated by everyone, including Draupadi, whom he loves to distraction.

Raghu

10th August 2007, 03:14 PM

oh, so Polygamy is not disgusting? One man getting married to many women is ok?

that is EQUALLY DISGUSTING :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

even Sri Krishna had so many women :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Nakeeran

10th August 2007, 03:31 PM

Badri

13th August 2007, 05:16 AM

Raghu Sir

There is a difference in the way Arjuna or Krishna had followed in having multiple wives

In both the cases, the women willingly got married but not the way in Draupathi. SHe was IMPOSED on this sad thing .

Oh, so you think all women were married away on their own free will? The only woman who loved Krishna and wanted to marry him was Rukmini. She even sent him a love letter, and wanted him to come and show his strength and marry her. All the others were given away by their respective parents/guardians.

None of the women had any choice over who they were marrying or whether they were getting married to the man as his 4th or 5th or 6th wife!

Madh@va

13th August 2007, 08:45 AM

oh, so Polygamy is not disgusting? One man getting married to many women is ok? Arjuna was married to so many women, and yet none of you have stated that as being denigrating to womanhood!
:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
This very hypocrisy I have been pinpointing to some people in vain, though not in Mahabaratham context (latest case in point, the movie Uyir).

Hi Badri :wave:

Raghu

13th August 2007, 01:54 PM

Raghu Sir

There is a difference in the way Arjuna or Krishna had followed in having multiple wives

In both the cases, the women willingly got married but not the way in Draupathi. SHe was IMPOSED on this sad thing .

yes nakeern, for everything we do in life be it bad or good, we will always have reason to back up what we have done is correct.

VERY SAD :cry:

Raghu

13th August 2007, 02:03 PM

let's 4get about Draupadi issue, i think it is useless to discuss about that. now coming back to the GREATEST character KARNA

1) During Draupadi's swayamvaram, all the kings would be present to display the archery skills inorder to marry here, pandavas would be here in the disguise of Bhramins.

all the kings would fail to lift the bow it self, let alone fire the arrow, but karna would lift up with ease , attache the arrow to fire the target, at the moment Draupadi will INSULT KARNA, by saying only chatriya should take part not saarthi's son, is this not an INSULT???

Sri Krsihna and Balaram would be present in the saba with sealed lips!!!:evil:

this may be th reason why KARNA kept quiet while Draupadi was being seduced !

Badri

14th August 2007, 05:42 AM

<

oh, so Polygamy is not disgusting? One man getting married to many women is ok? Arjuna was married to so many women, and yet none of you have stated that as being denigrating to womanhood!
:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
This very hypocrisy I have been pinpointing to some people in vain, though not in Mahabaratham context (latest case in point, the movie Uyir).

Hi Badri :wave:

<digression>

AR! New avatar?

</end digression>

Sudhaama

14th August 2007, 06:08 AM

.
.Draupadi is honoured as PATHNI.!!

let's 4get about Draupadi issue, i think it is useless to discuss about that. now coming back to the GREATEST character KARNA

1) During Draupadi's swayamvaram, all the kings would be present to display the archery skills inorder to marry here, pandavas would be here in the disguise of Bhramins.

all the kings would fail to lift the bow it self, let alone fire the arrow, but karna would lift up with ease , attache the arrow to fire the target, at the moment Draupadi will INSULT KARNA, by saying only chatriya should take part not saarthi's son, is this not an INSULT???

Sri Krsihna and Balaram would be present in the saba with sealed lips!!!:evil:

this may be th reason why KARNA kept quiet while Draupadi was being seduced !

Forget Draupadi... Paanjali so soon?... Why so much in a hurry.?

I am patiently waiting for all others to speak out whatever they have got to say on this Unique Character... of Indian Epic..

...uncomparable to any in the World Literature and Epics.

We have already discussed in detail... about two years back... on this character.

Dear Raghu, will you please search and provide that link of...

...MY Analytical POSTINGS on Draupadi (Especially my detailed Reply to "Thiru")... here for the Reference of all.?...

... before I proceed furtheron to say a lot more... on that AYONIJA.

...INTERESTING and THOUGHT-PROVOKING... in the present Age too.!!

For the present.. I mention one point... Draupadi is honoured as PATHNI ...

... although the Common wife of Five brothers. How?

Because in bed she was dealing with only one particular Husband amongst the Five... for each year by turn.

That is how she could have Five different Children...

...identifying its specific Father.!!
.

Madh@va

14th August 2007, 10:07 AM

Digression

AR! New avatar?
Indeed! :D
End of Digression

Because in bed she was dealing with only one particular Husband amongst the Five... for each year by turn.

Sudhaamaji, I have a query. Was not Yudhisthira equated as the fatherly figure to the remaining 4 brothers? As such, should not his wife seen as a motherly figure to them?

Sudhaama

14th August 2007, 11:13 AM

Because in bed she was dealing with only one particular Husband amongst the Five... for each year by turn.

Sudhaamaji, I have a query. Was not Yudhisthira equated as the fatherly figure to the remaining 4 brothers? As such, should not his wife seen as a motherly figure to them?.

Nowhere in Bhaaratham, Yudhishtra was addressed or treated by his younger brothers... as FATHER to them.

True to his Family-status as Eldest brother... he was given the highest respect and command...

...conforming to the Norms of the Indian Society in that Puranic age.

Besides.. he was one of the Husbands of Draupadi, their Common wife...

..which position was equally maintained... as per Dharma Sasthras.

... I have already dealt on this aspect under this thread... about two years back.

I wonder and feel pained to see some hubbers.. commenting loosely on her character and chastity, womanhood and all such personal image factors about that Heroine of the Great Epic.

We have to remember... that she was an AYONIJA... who was not by Family way... from the Human-womb...but...

a divine-birth emanated from Homa-Fire.

She is worshipped as the Fire-Goddess...Draupadi Amman in some villages.

...They say she is very powerful... I have personally witnessed some miraculous events..

...INCREDIBLE... but True.!!

How she happened to marry Five Husbands... apart from the Kunthi pertinent episode...

... is another INTERESTING factor, many do not know, nor may remember...

..which is an IMPORTANT LESSON for Mankind...in ALL RESPECTS...for ever...

...on which I have already analysed in detail.

Why she suffered...UNDUE...? How?... is the point we have to think over practically...

It is another IMPORTANT LESSON for the posterity.

Even though a divine birth, wedded to five INVINCIBLE great warriors...

... she miserably suffered to the WORST for even an ordinary, common woman.....Why?..

All because of her making on her own...

... which is an Eternal Lesson from Bhaaratham...

What were her such Mistakes.?.. rather BLUNDERS.?

..Applicable to ANYBODY.. of any Era... Present and Future too.!!
.

Nakeeran

16th August 2007, 02:32 PM

[tscii:52a4de7a8f]Mr. Sudhama

I think you are over glorifying Draupadhi . IMO, Draupadhi was another normal human being for :

1.Having laughed at Duryodhana when he was the guest of honour for their newly constructed palace ( by Mayan )
2.Having denied Karna when he also participated in that skill of archery which was a pre condition to marry Draupadhi.

Duryodhana, after all, is a prince & his Father is an iconic figure, truly a revered one >>> Dridrashtra, considered the Father figure by even Pandavas. I believe, she passed comments like >>> son of a blind man is also blind when Duryodhana slipped & fell on a mirage ( pl clarify if its true ) If she had really uttered such words, well, she deserves much more harsher treatment. No man ( be it Nakeeran or the prince Duryodhana ) will absorb such provocative teasings . DEFINITELY , NOT THE WAY TO TREAT YOUR GUEST.

On her comments against Karna >>> I will not marry a Suta putra >>> If she had such reservations, she should have expressly laid down conditions well before the event so that Karna would not have participated that test. Having made an entry and also for having successfully lifted the invincible bow also, Karna certainly deserves some fair treatment.
Its altogether another tale that Draupadhi accepted Arjuna ( who actually appeared in disguise )

May you pls explain why she was so haughty ?

She doesn’t deserve to be treated like a Goddess . For someone who has so much disparity on caste, she doesnt deserve this much elevated status.

I would go one step further >>>>

Becaz of her comments on Duryodhana , he was furious to give a befitting revenge on her & this all culminated to that dice game & subsequent disrobing .

Karna was equally agitated & was upset with her for having passed such comments & also treated with unfairness. He was equally vengefull when she was dragged to the rajyasabha .

though I dont vouch for their misdeeds, the act of Draupadhi one both the occasions, strongly condemnable
[/tscii:52a4de7a8f]

Raghu

16th August 2007, 04:08 PM

2.Having denied Karna when he also participated in that skill of archery which was a pre condition to marry Draupadhi.

On her comments against Karna " I will not marry a Suta putra " If she had such reservations, she should have expressly laid down conditions well before the event so that Karna would not have participated that test. Having made an entry and also for having successfully lifted the invincible bow also, Karna certainly deserves some fair treatment.

Exactly :exactly: :exactly: :exactly:

QUESTION OF THE DAY

If Kshatriyas WERE the only one for the COMPETITION, how come arjuna was allowed??? he was in DISGUISE as a Bhramin, no one knew the pandavs TRUE identity except Lord Krishna? so how come Arjuna was allowed by Draupadis Father to Participate in the competition ???

Sudhaama

16th August 2007, 08:44 PM

.
.Even Gods & Godesses are NOT EXCEPTIONS.!!

[tscii:10349de6c2]Mr. Sudhama

I think you are over glorifying Draupadhi . IMO, Draupadhi was another normal human being for :

1.Having laughed at Duryodhana when he was the guest of honour for their newly constructed palace ( by Mayan )
2.Having denied Karna when he also participated in that skill of archery which was a pre condition to marry Draupadhi.

Duryodhana, after all, is a prince & his Father is an iconic figure, truly a revered one >>> Dridrashtra, considered the Father figure by even Pandavas. I believe, she passed comments like >>> son of a blind man is also blind when Duryodhana slipped & fell on a mirage ( pl clarify if its true ) If she had really uttered such words, well, she deserves much more harsher treatment. No man ( be it Nakeeran or the prince Duryodhana ) will absorb such provocative teasings . DEFINITELY , NOT THE WAY TO TREAT YOUR GUEST.

On her comments against Karna >>> I will not marry a Suta putra >>> If she had such reservations, she should have expressly laid down conditions well before the event so that Karna would not have participated that test. Having made an entry and also for having successfully lifted the invincible bow also, Karna certainly deserves some fair treatment.
Its altogether another tale that Draupadhi accepted Arjuna ( who actually appeared in disguise )

May you pls explain why she was so haughty ?

She doesn’t deserve to be treated like a Goddess . For someone who has so much disparity on caste, she doesnt deserve this much elevated status.

I would go one step further >>>>

Becaz of her comments on Duryodhana , he was furious to give a befitting revenge on her & this all culminated to that dice game & subsequent disrobing .

Karna was equally agitated & was upset with her for having passed such comments & also treated with unfairness. He was equally vengefull when she was dragged to the rajyasabha .

though I dont vouch for their misdeeds, the act of Draupadhi one both the occasions, strongly condemnable
[/tscii:10349de6c2]

Yes Dear Nakeera... Well-said.

That is the main point I meant... as her Mistakes.. rather BLUNDERS...

...caused and JUSTIFIED for her Miseries... superficially appearing to be undue to her...

...and that she was INNOCENT.

There are a lot more cases... by which she has proved herself to be ARROGANT, HAUGHTY, HEADWEIGHTED, and a Cheap person of Low-calibre...

...UNFIT to be HONOURED as a Divine birth originated from the holy Homa-Fire... !!

..UNWORTHY to be called as the Princess... of Royal Heirarchy...!!

... and UNDESERVING to be respected as the UNIQUE Queen wedded to three INVINCIBLE WARRIORS.!!!

For the meaningful objections and Valid Question by the enraged Duryodana to Draupadi... while she commented cheap on the Ancestry of Karna... as Sootha-puthra..

"If it is an objectionable Norm to be a Sootha-puthra... to deserve for an offer as Bride-groom...

...then why the hell Karna too was invited and so insulted and denigrated before such a vast assembly of Princes from all over the Nations.?

And Karna asks... if she is so Great as Agni-puthri... she should have invited only Agni-puthras... and Not we the Human-beings.!!

In fact by consideration of the Hosts... the Draupadi's parents...

... the Ancestry factor of Karna was ignored as insignificant criteria and exceptional in the case of Karna...

...whereas it was the striking-objection by the Bride Draupadi... but of ill-mannered comment...

...transgressing the Rudimentary norms of Dignity, Basic standards of Manners and Minimum stipulations of Diplomacy... due in a high Assembly.

On Draupadi's scathing attack and insult... her parents and brother became Spell-bound. They feared to comment.. because it was a delicate factor...

...already an unending vociferous dispute amongst the various Kings... how could Duryodana find Karna qualified to become the King of Anga-desa.?

Getting No reply from anybody... to their WISE AND VALID QUESTIONS.

...under frustration of Karna and Duryodana enraged... they both left out.

Such an undue and unfair insult... became the Root-cause for the Revenge by Karna on Draupadi ...

...when she fell to their FREE DISPOSAL as susceptible...

...caught unaware as an INNOCENT SLAVE OF TOY..

...under the Cruel hands of those Enemies... waiting for a fitting opportunity for Revenge.

...the OTHER EXTREMITY... in return to Draupadi... although the proved haughty.

Consequently they meted out the worst possible treatment... an in-human punishment from any King...

... towards any ordinary Maid-servant... or even a Slave-woman.

One of the Remarkable Lessons from this Greatest Indian Epic... is...

Even GODS AND GODESSES ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS..

...in the Eyes of Dharma... the Humane-Doctrine of Righteousness.!!
.

Shakthiprabha.

17th August 2007, 12:20 AM

When any person (including REALISED energy mass) is BORN with flesh, tissues and bones,
MAAYA sets in. THEY DO MISTAKES and BLUNDERS.

we do
rama did
krishna did

U NAME anyone and THEY HAVE DONE BLUNDERS.

INSTEAD of justifying their deeds, with a MYTHOLOGICAL stories, ITS wiser to ACCEPT them as they were with their faults, and....

be clever to see only a person's glorious side, to help us reach loftier goals.

Nakeeran

17th August 2007, 08:56 AM

Mr. SUdhama

Thank you very much for the explanation.

One thing I wish to mention here again >>> Whatever may be the utterances by Draupadhi, the Kauravas should not have given such a terrible treatment if they had really respected atleast Yudhistira & considering an elder brother's wife as equal to a mother .
This itself is an enough sin for them to get punished severely.
Sadly , Karna, considered to be a noble guy also became part of the wicked group & he also deserved to be punished .

Thanks

ishwaria

21st August 2007, 08:43 AM

I dont know how many people have heard about this but the great mahabaratha is just a story created my man to let the common people understand some morals of lfe. It was not a true event. There is a book called Gitaiyin marupakkam. Look it up.

Sudhaama

21st August 2007, 10:09 AM

.
God's Dubious Blunders have a lot SENSE BEHIND.!!

When any person (including REALISED energy mass) is BORN with flesh, tissues and bones,
MAAYA sets in. THEY DO MISTAKES and BLUNDERS.

we do
rama did
krishna did

U NAME anyone and THEY HAVE DONE BLUNDERS.

INSTEAD of justifying their deeds, with a MYTHOLOGICAL stories, ITS wiser to ACCEPT them as they were with their faults, and....

be clever to see only a person's glorious side, to help us reach loftier goals.

It is a loose comment to pass on by a Sweeping judgement based on stray thoughts...

... on high values of Indian Epics... the exemplary Heritage.

If anybody is unable to grasp the logic behind some mysterical approaches of Awatharas...

..or unable to get convinced... on any event of Puranas...

... better they learn by reading the relevant AUTHORITATIVE books written exaustively by several learned Scholars like Rt. Honourable Srinivasa Sastry, Justice Mohamad Ismail, U.Ve.Swaminatha Iyer, Ra.Pi. Sethu Pillai, Vai.Mu. Gopala-Krishnamachariar.. and so on.

...instead of hurting others... who regard immensely... those rich treasures of Human-values...

...applicable to all irrespective of Religion and Nationality.

Anybody is welcome to raise their Doubts and Questions here.. in a healthy sense of positive outlook on Life. We all are here to reply.

This Forum is meant for discussions... Exchange of mutual Healthy Thoughts of wise contents.

... and NOT FOR ARGUMENTS OR DEBATE... on pre-conceived notions.

...as also Not to FORCIBLY get thrusted by anybody's PERSONAL INFERENCES.

In brief... Every act of Gods and Godesses.. as per Puranas... have a lot of imbued sense behind... which is the purpose of Awatharas.

...We must try to understand and learn lessons for our Life.

Dear Sakthiprabha... please be specific... What do you mean..

... by equating God and Man at par in committing Mistakes and Blunders.?

If you quote any instance.. we will be able to put forth the other side.

Instead of Vague comments superficially...

...Please come out to pinpoint specifically.
.

Sudhaama

21st August 2007, 10:10 AM

Rohit

22nd August 2007, 12:48 AM

-deleted-

thilak4life

2nd March 2008, 06:54 PM

To quote,

It is sad that sometimes the only way we get information about our immortal epics is by way of TV serials.

How true. Digressive to the discourse, but related I think, I caught "Pandavas" on POGO. I guess they're playing it for a long time now. The animation (by Pentamedia) is poor of course, but that's not a reasion why I couldn't stand the film. (the names Ilaiyaraja or Sujatha interest me more than the animation,etc) Coming to my point, *this* particular adaptation is so underwhelming!

wrap07

6th March 2008, 11:23 PM

Our ancient history has immense and intrinsic values.

Our various puranas have dealt with in detail the various scientific inventions of today at that time iteself. We are the torch bearers of the entire civilisation. Our Puranas covers each and every aspect of human life.

We have immeasurable ocean of knowledge in our puranas and history. You can see details of even flying an object in air. The medidation which is in its various forms so popular now owes its origin to our puranas.

The unfortunate part is we believe only the western scholarly words and any knowledge posessed by our Tradition is not given any respect and we are the losers.

Raghu

17th March 2008, 06:34 PM

what was connection with pithamabhisma and shikandi?

wrap07

17th March 2008, 08:29 PM

'Bhishma' means 'He of the terrible oath', referring to his vow of life-long celibacy. Devavrata became known as Bhishma because he took the bhishan pratigya — the vow of life-long celibacy and of service to whoever sat on the throne of his father (the throne of Hastinapur). This was because when his father Shantanu wanted to marry a fisherwoman Satyavati, her father refused, on the grounds that his daughter's children would never be rulers as Shantanu already had a son (Devavrata). This made Shantanu despondent. To placate Satyavati's father, Devavrata promised that he would never stake a claim to the throne, implying that the child born to Shantanu and Satyavati would become the ruler after Shantanu. At this, Satyavati's father retorted that even if Devavrata gave up his claim to the throne, his (Devavrata's) children would still claim the throne. At this, Devavrata, to make his father happy, took the terrible vow, thus sacrificing his 'crown-prince' title. This gave him immediate recognition among the gods and his father granted him the boon of Ichha Mrityu (control over his own death — he could choose the time of his death, but not, as may be suggested, one of immortality).

Bhishma was a great archer and a warrior of peerless valour and courage. In the process of finding a bride for the young king Vichitravirya (son of Shantanu and Satyavati) for whom he was the regent, Bhishma challenged the assemblage of suitors at the swayamvar of princesses Amba, Ambika and Ambalika of Kashi (Varanasi) and defeated all of them. Unknown to Bhishma, Salwa, the ruler of Saubala was in love with Amba (the eldest princess) who reciprocated his feelings. On the way to Hastinapura with the princesses, Bhishma was confronted by Salwa who challenged him to a battle for the hand of Amba in marriage. After a hard fight, Salwa was vanquished and admitted defeat. Upon reaching Hastinapur Amba confided in Bhishma that she wished to wed Salwa and no other. When Bhishma sent her back to Salwa, the vanquished ruler turned her down in humiliation of losing the combat. Upon being turned down by Vichitravirya too, as a maiden who had loved another man, Amba was incensed at Bhishma, whose interference she perceived as the root cause of her troubles.

Amba took refuge with Parasurama, the guru of bhisma. Parasurama ordered Bhishma to marry Amba. Bhishma politely refused saying that he is ready to leave his life at the command of the teacher but not the promise that he had made. Upon the refusal Parasurama called him for a fight at Kurukshetra.

At the battlegrounds, while Bhishma was on a chariot, he saw his guru on the ground. He requested Parasurama to be equal to him by taking a chariot and Kavacham (armor). Parasurama blessed Bhishma with the power of divine vision and asked him to look again. When Bhishma looked at his guru with the divine eye-sight, he saw the Earth as Parasurama's chariot, the four Vedas as the horses, the Upanishads as the reins, Vayu as the sarathy (Charioteer) and the Vedic goddesses Gayatri, Savitri & Saraswati as the armor.

Bhishma got down from the chariot and sought the blessings of Parasurama to adhere to his dharma. Parasurama told him that if he would not have behaved in this manner Parasurama would have cursed him. Parasurama advised him to fight to protect his dharma of bramacharya and Prasurama would fight to protect his duty towards the word given to Amba.

They fought for 23 days without any result. Parasurama is a chiranjeev or immortal whereas Bhishma had the boon of death at his wish. On the 22nd night, Bhishma prayed to his ancestors to help him to bring the war to an end. His anscestors gave him a weapon which was not known to Parasurama . They told him that it would put Parasurama to sleep in the battlefield. A person who sleeps in the battlefield is considered to be dead as per Vedas. They advised Bhishma to call back the weapon at the end of day after sunset so that Parasurama will come back to his sense and that shall bring the end to war.

On the 23rd day, when Bhishma took the weapon given by his pitru's, a divine voice spoke to him asking not to use the weapon and insult his guru Parasurama and it told Parasurama that he cannot win over Bhishma in the war. But Parasurama said that he cannot go back from the war when Bhishma is still standing against him in the battlefield. Bhishma in respect of his teacher walked away from the combat and allowed a graceful exit for Parasurama.

Parasurama told Amba that he could not win over Bhishma and gave her the boon of "mahakal shiva". Amba did penance to please Shiva. Shiva gave the boon that she will be instrumental for the death of Bhishma. Amba would be born as a princess in the house of king Drupada, and as a consequence of another boon would be transformed into Shikhandi (female) and be the root cause of Bhishma's death.

almost correct except for few errors

Sudhaama

29th April 2008, 09:15 PM

.
.Well-said on BHEESHMA. !

[tscii:aac4dcb574]
'Bhishma' means 'He of the terrible oath', referring to his vow of life-long celibacy. Devavrata became known as Bhishma because he took the bhishan pratigya — the vow of life-long celibacy and of service to whoever sat on the throne of his father (the throne of Hastinapur). This was because when his father Shantanu wanted to marry a fisherwoman Satyavati, her father refused, on the grounds that his daughter's children would never be rulers as Shantanu already had a son (Devavrata). This made Shantanu despondent. To placate Satyavati's father, Devavrata promised that he would never stake a claim to the throne, implying that the child born to Shantanu and Satyavati would become the ruler after Shantanu. At this, Satyavati's father retorted that even if Devavrata gave up his claim to the throne, his (Devavrata's) children would still claim the throne. At this, Devavrata, to make his father happy, took the terrible vow, thus sacrificing his 'crown-prince' title. This gave him immediate recognition among the gods and his father granted him the boon of Ichha Mrityu (control over his own death — he could choose the time of his death, but not, as may be suggested, one of immortality).

Bhishma was a great archer and a warrior of peerless valour and courage. In the process of finding a bride for the young king Vichitravirya (son of Shantanu and Satyavati) for whom he was the regent, Bhishma challenged the assemblage of suitors at the swayamvar of princesses Amba, Ambika and Ambalika of Kashi (Varanasi) and defeated all of them. Unknown to Bhishma, Salwa, the ruler of Saubala was in love with Amba (the eldest princess) who reciprocated his feelings. On the way to Hastinapura with the princesses, Bhishma was confronted by Salwa who challenged him to a battle for the hand of Amba in marriage. After a hard fight, Salwa was vanquished and admitted defeat. Upon reaching Hastinapur Amba confided in Bhishma that she wished to wed Salwa and no other. When Bhishma sent her back to Salwa, the vanquished ruler turned her down in humiliation of losing the combat. Upon being turned down by Vichitravirya too, as a maiden who had loved another man, Amba was incensed at Bhishma, whose interference she perceived as the root cause of her troubles.

Amba took refuge with Parasurama, the guru of bhisma. Parasurama ordered Bhishma to marry Amba. Bhishma politely refused saying that he is ready to leave his life at the command of the teacher but not the promise that he had made. Upon the refusal Parasurama called him for a fight at Kurukshetra.

At the battlegrounds, while Bhishma was on a chariot, he saw his guru on the ground. He requested Parasurama to be equal to him by taking a chariot and Kavacham (armor). Parasurama blessed Bhishma with the power of divine vision and asked him to look again. When Bhishma looked at his guru with the divine eye-sight, he saw the Earth as Parasurama's chariot, the four Vedas as the horses, the Upanishads as the reins, Vayu as the sarathy (Charioteer) and the Vedic goddesses Gayatri, Savitri & Saraswati as the armor.

Bhishma got down from the chariot and sought the blessings of Parasurama to adhere to his dharma. Parasurama told him that if he would not have behaved in this manner Parasurama would have cursed him. Parasurama advised him to fight to protect his dharma of bramacharya and Prasurama would fight to protect his duty towards the word given to Amba.

They fought for 23 days without any result. Parasurama is a chiranjeev or immortal whereas Bhishma had the boon of death at his wish. On the 22nd night, Bhishma prayed to his ancestors to help him to bring the war to an end. His anscestors gave him a weapon which was not known to Parasurama . They told him that it would put Parasurama to sleep in the battlefield. A person who sleeps in the battlefield is considered to be dead as per Vedas. They advised Bhishma to call back the weapon at the end of day after sunset so that Parasurama will come back to his sense and that shall bring the end to war.

On the 23rd day, when Bhishma took the weapon given by his pitru's, a divine voice spoke to him asking not to use the weapon and insult his guru Parasurama and it told Parasurama that he cannot win over Bhishma in the war. But Parasurama said that he cannot go back from the war when Bhishma is still standing against him in the battlefield. Bhishma in respect of his teacher walked away from the combat and allowed a graceful exit for Parasurama.

Parasurama told Amba that he could not win over Bhishma and gave her the boon of "mahakal shiva". Amba did penance to please Shiva. Shiva gave the boon that she will be instrumental for the death of Bhishma. Amba would be born as a princess in the house of king Drupada, and as a consequence of another boon would be transformed into Shikhandi (female) and be the root cause of Bhishma's death.

almost correct except for few errors

. :thumbsup:
.[/tscii:aac4dcb574]

wrap07

2nd May 2008, 11:51 PM

thanks a lot :D

Raghu

21st October 2009, 11:02 PM

[tscii:90055685ca][/tscii:90055685ca]This article is about a figure in Mahābhārata. For other uses, see Karna (disambiguation).

Karna (right) confronts Arjuna, who will later kill Karna, in the Kurukshetra war.Karna (Sanskrit: कर्ण written Karṇa in IAST transliteration) is one of the central characters in the epic Mahābhārata from ancient India. Karna is considered to be the greatest warrior of Mahābhārata by authorities including Krishna and Bhishma, as stated in the original text by Maharishi Ved Vyasa [1][2][3][4]. He was the son of Surya (the Sun god) and Kunti. He was born to Kunti, before her marriage with Pandu. He is described as the closest friend of Duryodhana. Karna fought on his behalf against the Pandavas - his brothers- at the Kurukshetra war. Karna fought against misfortune throughout his life and kept his word under all circumstances. Many admire him for this courage and generosity. It is believed that Karna founded the city of Karnal.

Contents [hide]
1 Virgin birth
2 Upbringing
3 Training
4 Various curses imparted to Karna
5 King of Anga and friendship with Duryodhana
6 Generosity and character
7 The Swayamvara of Draupadi
8 Game of dice
9 Military campaign
10 Krishna and Karna
11 Loss of armour
12 Kunti and Karna
13 The Great War: Kurukshetra
13.1 The thirteenth day
13.2 The night of the 14th day
14 Karna Parva
14.1 The sixteenth day
14.2 The seventeenth day
15 After Karna's death
16 Karna as the adulated figure
17 Contrast with Arjuna
18 Factors that contributed towards Karna's death
19 References
20 External links

[edit] Virgin birth
Karna was born to his mother Kunti by his father the solar deity Surya. Karna was born, before his mother's marriage to prince Pandu. When Kunti was young, the sage Durvasa visited her father's palace. She served the sage with utmost care for an entire year. Pleased by her service and hospitality, the sage foresaw her future difficulty after marriage of not having a child through Pandu, and hence granted her a boon to overcome this difficulty. By this boon she could call upon any god of her choice, and beget a child. Out of curiosity, Kunti still being unmarried, decided to test the power of the boon. She invoked the mantra and called Surya. Bounded by the power of the mantra, Surya appeared before her and granted her a son, who was as radiant and robust as Surya himself. This baby was born with an armour ('Kavacha') and a pair of earrings ('Kundala') attached to him. Though Kunti retained her virginity, she was unwilling to face the world as an unwed mother. She placed the baby Karna in a basket and set him afloat on the holy river Ganga in the hope that he would be taken in by another family.

[edit] Upbringing
The child Karna was found by Adhiratha-- a charioteer of the king Dhritarashtra. He and his wife Radha raised Karna as their own son and named him Vasusena. Karna also came to be known as Radheya - son of Radha (his foster mother) while his original name Karna meant 'ear', because according to legend, the baby Karna came out of Kunti's ear. The bond between Karna and his foster parents was filled with pure love, respect and affection. Karna lovingly performed his duties as their son, despite his rise as a king of Anga and the eventual revelation of his true birth. Thus, Karna remained faithful and loyal to his foster parents till his death. His wife's name was Vrushali, Ponnuruvi.

As regards his sons, Karna had several sons and the names of nine of his sons are mentioned. Of the nine, only one survived the Kurukshetra war. Vrasasena; Sudhama; Shatrunjaya; Dvipata; Sushena; Satyasea; Chitrasena; Susharma(Banasena); and Vrishakethu.

Sudhama died in the melee that followed Draupadi’s swayamvara. Shatrunjaya and Dvipata died in the Kurukshetra war at the hands of Arjuna during the days when Drona commanded the Kaurava forces. Sushena was killed in the war by Bhima. Satyasena, Chitrasena and Susharma died at the hands of Nakula. Karna’s eldest son Vrasasena died during the last days of the war when Karna was the commanded the battle forces. Vrasasena was killed by Arjuna.

Vrishasena’s death is described in all its gruesome detail:

Vrishasena, angered at the death of Duhshasana and Chitrasena, rushed at Nakula, desiring to fight with his father's enemy. A fierce battle then ensued between those two heroes. Vrishasena managed to kill Nakula's horses and pierce him with many arrows. Descending from his chariot, Nakula took up his sword and shield, and making his way toward Vrishasena, he severed the heads of two thousand horsemen. Vrishasena, seeing Nakula coming towards him whirling that sword like a discus, shattered the sword and shield with four crescent shaped arrows. Nakula then quickly ascended Bhima's chariot. As Arjuna came near, Nakula requested him, "Please slay this sinful person." Arjuna then ordered Lord Krishna, "Proceed toward the son of Karna. I will kill him within his father's sight." Unsupported by anyone, Vrishasena challenged Arjuna releasing many different kinds of arrows. He pierced Arjuna's arm with ten arrows and Krishna also with ten. Arjuna became enraged, and exclaimed loudly to the Kaurava kings including Karna, "Today, O Karna, I will kill your son as you unfairly killed my son, Abhimanyu! Let all the warriors protect him if they can. I will kill him, and then, O fool, I will slay you; and Bhima will slay the wretched Duryodhana, whose evil policies have brought about the great battle." Having threatened Karna, Arjuna struck Vrishasena with ten arrows that weakened him. With four razor headed arrows, Arjuna cut off his bow, his two arms and his head that was adorned with beautiful earrings. Beholding Vrishasena killed, Karna wept bitter tears, and his eyes were red with rage. He then proceeded toward Arjuna challenging him to fight.

Vrishakethu was the only son of Karna that survived the horrific slaughter called Kurukshetra war. He later came under the patronage of the Pandavas. During the campaign that preceded the Ashvamedha –yaga, Vrishakethu accompanied Arjuna and participated in the battles with Sudhava and Babruvahana. During that campaign Vrishakethu married the daughter of king Yavanatha (perhaps a king of the western regions). It is said, Arjuna developed great affection for Vrishakethu, his nephew.

[edit] Training
As he grew up, Karna became more interested in the art of warfare than in being a charioteer like his father Adhirata. Karna met Dronacharya, who at that moment was an established teacher in the art of warfare. Dronacharya taught the Kuru princes, but refused to take Karna as his student, since Karna was a son of a charioteer and Drona only taught Kshatriyas.

After being refused by Drona, Karna decided to be self-taught with his brother Shona's help. But according to Indian culture when you have to learn an art, you must have a Guru(teacher),so Karna decided to make The Sun(God)his guru. Karna learnt all the arts without a Guru. During daytime, he gathered information about various ayudhas(Weapons) and then after sundown, he exercised them.

One day when Karna came to Hastinapur(capital of Kauravas)after a month of holiday, he heard from his friend Ashwathama(son of Drona) that last week Guru Dronacharya decided to test his students in their skill of archery. He hung a wooden bird from the branch of a tree and then summoned his students. He asked the first one to aim for the bird's eye but not shoot just yet. He then asked the student what he could see. The student replied that he could see the garden, the tree, flowers, etc. Drona asked him to step aside and not to shoot. He repeated the same process with a few other students. When it was Arjuna's turn, Arjuna told his Guru that the only thing he could see was the bird's eye. This satisfied the Guru and he allowed Arjuna to shoot the bird and Arjuna successfully hit the eye of that Parrot.

After listening to his brother's version of events, Karna told his brother that if Arjuna could hit the one eye of the parrot then he can hit both eyes of the parrot in a single shot. As they practiced in the night, Karna decided to shoot both eyes of the parrot the same night with the help of Palita(instrument used to lighten homes).As Karna instructed him ,Shona suspended the wooden parrot high above the tree and held the palita beneath. Karna strung the bow with two arrows (slightly changed their position one after the other) and as soon as he got signal from Shona, Karna successfully hit both eyes of the bird in a single shot. This was achieved within a short time's practice, this shows that Karna is the greatest archer in the world of all time.

In a very short period of time Karna was able to learn various arts. But, Karna becomes more interested to learn all the advanced skills of archery including the use of Divine weapons. After being refused by Drona, Karna decides to learn from Parashurama, the guru of Drona. Thus, Karna eventually approached Parashurama, who was known to teach only Brahmins[5]. He appeared before Parashurama as a Brahmin and requested that he be taken as his student. Parashurama accepted him and trained him to such a point, that he declared Karna to be equal to himself in the art of warfare and archery. Thus, Karna became a diligent student of Parashurama.

[edit] Various curses imparted to Karna
Karna was cursed by his guru Bhagvan Parashurama, a Brahmin and the Earth goddess as described below:

As Karna's training came to completion, Parashurama learnt the truth about Karna's origin. The legend goes that one afternoon Parashurama requested Karna to bring a pillow for him to sleep on in a tree's shade. Karna instead offered his teacher his lap. While Parashurama was asleep, a scorpion stung Karna's thigh. Despite the excruciating pain, Karna did not move so as not to disturb his Guru's sleep. As the scorpion bored deeper into Karna's thigh, the wound began to bleed. Parashurama was woken up by the blood from Karna's thigh. He deduced at once that Karna was a Kshatriya and not a Brahmin, as only Kshatriyas were known for such valour. Thus, Parashurama, who had sworn vengeance against all Kshatriyas, concluded that Karna lied about being a Brahmin in order to learn from him. So, he cursed Karna that his martial skills including the use of Brahmastra would desert him when he needed them most. This in turn meant that Karna would forget all that he had learnt from Parashurama during his hour of crisis. Karna, who was unaware of his royal lineage, pleaded with his Guru that any student in his place would have acted the same way. While he regretted cursing Karna in a moment of anger, Parashurama's curse was irrevocable. He, gifted Karna with a celestial weapon called Bhargavastra along with Parashurama's personal bow called Vijaya and blessed him that in the end, Karna would achieve what he wanted the most- everlasting glory and immortal fame. Some folklore also says that, it was Lord Indra(the father of Karna's rival, Arjuna) who took the form of a scorpion to sting Karna's thigh in order to expose his intrinsic identity, a Kshatriya.

Departing from Parashurama's ashram, Karna wandered for some time. On his way, while practicing the Shabdavedi Vidya (the ability to hit a target by just observing the sound), he mistook a cow for a wild animal and shot an arrow at it and killed it. Incensed by this incident, the Brahmin who owned the cow cursed him, stating that as he had killed a helpless animal, Karna too would be killed in the same way when he was most helpless with his concentration being diverted away from his enemy at that crucial moment.

Andhra folklore further states that once Karna while riding his chariot in his kingdom of Anga, encountered a child who was crying over her pot of spilt ghee. On asking her the reason for her dismay, she stated that she feared her step mother who would be angry over her carelessness. Being generous enough Karna told her that he would give her new ghee. But, the child insisted that she wanted only the ghee that was mixed with the soil and refused to take the new ghee. Taking pity on the girl, Karna took the soil mixed with ghee in his fist and squeezed it with all his might to extract the ghee and pour it back into the pot. During this process, Karna heard the agonized voice of a woman. When he opened his fist, he realized that the voice was that of Bhoomidevi- the Earth goddess. Furious, she chastized Karna for inflicting enormous pain on Mother Earth for the sake of a mere child. So, the Earth goddess cursed him that in a very crucial battle of his life, she would trap his chariot wheel in the same way that he held the fistful of soil,thereby making him vulnerable to his enemy.

Thus, Karna was cursed on three separate and independent occasions. Unfortunately, each of these curses became operational at the same crucial moment in the Kurukshetra war, later making him weaponless, left without a chariot and helpless.

[edit] King of Anga and friendship with Duryodhana
Drona held a tournament at Hastinapura, to display the skills of the Kuru princes. Arjuna emerged in this tournament as a particularly gifted archer. Karna arrived at the tournament and after surpassing Arjuna's feats, challenged him to a duel. Kripacharya refused Karna his duel, asking first for his clan and kingdom - according to the rules of dueling, only a prince could challenge Arjuna who was a prince of the Kuru house. Duryodhana, the oldest of the Kauravas, who always knew that Pandavas were better than him and his brothers at warfare, saw Karna as his strongest chance against Pandavas and immediately offered him the throne of the kingdom Anga, making him a king and hence eligible to duel Arjuna. When Karna asks him what he can do to repay him, Duryodhana tells him all he wants is his friendship.

This event establishes key relationships in the Mahābhārata, namely, the strong bond between Duryodhana and Karna, the intense rivalry between Karna and Arjuna, and the enmity in general between the Pandavas as a whole and Karna.

Karna is spoken of as a loyal and true comrade to Duryodhana. While he was later party to the infamous game of dice to please Duryodhana, he was opposed to it to begin with. Karna disliked Shakuni, and advised Duryodhana continuously to use his prowess and skill to defeat his enemies, rather than deceit and trickery. When the attempt to kill the Pandavas in the house of lac fails, Karna chides Duryodhana in his despondence, telling him the ways of cowards are doomed to failure and exhorting him to be a warrior and obtain what he wants through valor. Karna aided Duryodhana in marrying the princess of Chitragandha. In her swayamvara, the princess rejected Duryodhana, who subsequently carried her away by force. The other kings present at the swayamvara pursued Duryodhana. However, Karna defeated them single-handedly. The defeated included Jarasandha, Shishupala, Dantavakra, Salya and Rukmi. As a token of his appreciation, Jarasandha gifted Karna a portion of Magadha. Bheema defeated Jarasandha with the help of Krishna but it was Karna who defeated Jarasandha earlier single-handedly. Karna was the first one to expose the weak point of Jarasandha about splitting him in two.

[edit] Generosity and character
Following his accession to Anga's throne, Karna took an oath that anyone who approached him with a request at midday, when he worshipped the Sun, would not go away with his request unfulfilled. He would never let anyone leave empty-handed. This practice contributed to Karna's fame as well as to his downfall, as Indra and Kunti took advantage of it. Further, Karna was cursed by Bhoomidevi when he tried to fulfill the request of a girl over ghee that fell in the soil.

[edit] The Swayamvara of Draupadi
Karna was a suitor for Draupadi at her swayamvara. Unlike most other contenders, he was easily able to wield and string the bow, but as he was ready to set aim, on Krishna's gesture, Draupadi restrained him from shooting the arrow by calling him a soot-putra (son of a charioteer). The Pandavas were also present in the swayamvara, disguised as brahmanas. Following the failure of the other princes, Arjuna stepped into the ring and successfully HIT the target, winning Draupadi's HAND. When Arjuna's identity was later revealed, Karna's feelings of rivalry further intensified.

[edit] Game of dice
Karna was never happy with Shakuni's plan to defeat the Pandavas by trickery and deceit. He preferred the way of battle and repeatedly cajoled Duryodhana to choose that path. To please Duryodhana, however, he chose to be a part of the game, leading to the infamous "Vastra Haran" incident.

After Shakuni had won the game of dice by trickery, the Pandavas' queen Draupadi was dragged into the court by Dushasana who, incited by Karna, Duryodhana and his brothers, attempted to strip her. Karna insulted Draupadi by saying that a woman with more than four husbands is nothing but a 'whore' and that the Pandavas were all like sesame seeds removed from the kernel and she should now find some other husbands.

On the spot, Bhima vowed that he will personally slaughter Duryodhana and his brothers in battle. Arjuna subsequently swore to kill Karna. ..

[edit] Military campaign
During the Pandavas' exile, Karna took upon himself the task of establishing Duryodhana as the Emperor of the World. Karna commanded an army to different parts of the country to subjugate kings and made them swear allegiance to Duryodhana, the king of Hastinapura or else die in battle. Karna succeeded in all the battles. In this military adventure, Karna is stated to have waged wars and reduced to submission numerous kingdoms including those of the Kambojas, the Shakas, the Kekayas, the Avantyas, the Gandharas, the Madarakas, the Trigartas, the Tanganas, the Panchalas, the Videhas, the Suhmas, the Angas, the Vangas, the Nishadas, the Kalingas, the Vatsa, the Ashmakas, the Rishikas and numerous others including mlecchas and the forest tribes. (MBH 8.8.18-20).

[edit] Krishna and Karna
Following the failed peace negotiations with Duryodhana, Krishna approaches Karna, who has come to be known Duryodhana's finest warrior. Krishna reveals to Karna his identity as the eldest Pandava and asks him to join their side. Krishna assures him that since he is the eldest Pandava, Yudhisthira would most certainly give the crown of Indraprastha to Karna who would become a great king.

Karna refuses the enormous offer because he swore fealty to Duryodhana, and as such, was compelled to stay by his side despite his genetic ties to the Pandavas. He said that Yudhisthira was a righteous man, and knowing that Karna was older than him, Yudhisthira would immediately give up his crown to him. However, to repay his debt to Duryodhana, Karna would have to put the crown of Indraprastha on Duryodhana, which Karna thought was against Dharma. He also remarks to Krishna that as long as he is with Pandavas on the side of Truth, defeat is certain for himself. Krishna is saddened, but appreciating Karna's sense of loyalty, accepts his decision, promising Karna that his lineage would remain a secret. Krishna yet again appreciated Karna for his righteousness, and bowed to him- the one example when divinity bowed down to humanity.

[edit] Loss of armour
Indra, king of the gods (Devas) and father of Arjuna, realized that Karna would be invincible and immortal in battle as long as he had the golden armour suit and earrings that he was born with. During the Pandavas' exile, when war was imminent, Indra took it upon himself to weaken Karna. He decided to approach Karna as a poor brahmin during his mid-day worship. Surya warned Karna of Indra's intentions, exhorting him not to give away his armour and earrings. Karna thanked Surya but explained he was bound by his word and could not send anyone from his door empty handed even if it meant his death. As Surya had predicted, a disguised Indra approached Karna and asked for his kavacha (body armour) and kundala (earrings) as alms. Karna readily gave them away, cutting the armor and earrings off his body. Indra, shamed into generosity by Karna's gesture, reciprocated by giving Karna the boon to use Indra's most powerful weapon, the Vasavi shakti, but only once. It is at this point that he earns the name Vaikartana, as he cut the armor off his body without flinching.

[edit] Kunti and Karna
As the war approached, Kunti met Karna to reveal his true identity. She told him that she was his mother and that he was her son. Then, both of them shared a touching moment together. She told him to call himself 'Kaunteya' (son of Kunti) instead of 'Radheya', but Karna replied that he wanted the entire world to recognise him as a Radheya and not as a Kaunteya. Kunti asked Karna to join the Pandavas and become king. Karna refused and told Kunti that had she been willing to call him as Kaunteya many years ago when he appeared at the tournament, then things would have been very different. But it was too late now for him to make this change. He further stated that being a friend of Duryodhana, he could not betray the trust of his friend. However, he promised Kunti that he would not kill any of the Pandavas except Arjuna. Both Karna and Arjuna had sworn to kill each other, and thus one of them was bound to die. So, he told Kunti that she could only keep five sons- the fifth one being either him or Arjuna. Karna requested his mother to keep their relationship and his royal birth a secret until his death.

Kunti also sought another promise from Karna of not using an arrow / divine weapon more than once. Karna promised her this too. As a result, Karna could not use the Nagastra weapon more than once in the Kurukshetra war later.

[edit] The Great War: Kurukshetra

A manuscript of Mahabharata depicting the war at Kurukshetra.Before the war begins, Bhishma, the commander-in-chief of the Kauravas refused Karna's participation in the Great war under his leadership as Karna is a son of a Charioteer. However Duryodana requests Bhishma to consider Karna under his leadership. But, Bhishma still denies Karna's participation in the war under his leadership. Consequently, Karna enters the battlefield only on the eleventh day after the fall of Bheeshma (on the tenth day).

[edit] The thirteenth day
On the thirteenth day of the battle, Dronacharya (Drona) organized a special formation called the Chakravyuha/Padmavyuha to challenge the Pandavas. Only Krishna and Arjuna on the Pandavas's side knew how to break the scheme. However, both were purposely drawn far away from the battle field by two kings (brothers) who ruled the Trigartha kingdom on Duryodhana's side. Abhimanyu, Arjuna's son had partial knowledge of the Chakrvyuha formation having heard it while he was in his mother's womb when Arjun was narrating the Chakravyuha arrangement to his mother Subhadra. Subhadra had paid attention to only for the first part of the narration and then had fallen asleep, so Abhimanyu only knew how to enter the formation, but not how to extract himself out of it. Thus, the four Pandava brothers decide that Abhimanyu will lead them to enter the Chakravyuha in the absence of Arjuna and Krishna.

But, as soon as Abhimanyu enters the Chakravyuha, Jayadratha-- the sindhu king from the Kaurava army blocked it, thereby preventing other pandavas from entering the formation. Thus, Abhimanyu was left all alone in the middle of the enemy formation. Once inside, he fought valiantly and single-handedly defeated all the reputed generals of the Kauravas including Karna, Drona and Duryodhana. Duryodhana and Karna chose to assist in the elimination of Abhimanyu as per Drona's instructions. Karna shot arrows that broke Abhimanyu's bow and the reins of his chariot, while the Kauravas overwhelmed him. The battle ended with Abhimanyu's death. Arjuna on learning of the death of Abhimanyu at the hands of Kauravas, pledged to kill Jayadratha before sunset the next day, failing which he would immolate himself in a pyre of fire.

[edit] The night of the 14th day
On the fourteenth day, the battle uncharacteristically extended over the night and Ghatotkacha, the half-asura son of Bhima began to decimate the Kaurava forces. Generally, the asuras become extraordinarily powerful at night. Duryodhana and Karna bravely stood and fought him. Finally when it seemed that Ghatotkacha would decimate all the Kaurava forces that very night, Duryodhana requested Karna to salvage the situation. Karna was forced to use the Shakti weapon on Ghatotkacha. This had been granted to him by Indra as a mark of respect for his peerless generosity (while donating his armour and earring to Indra). However, this shakti weapon could be used only once after which it would return to Indra. Thus, on using the shakthi weapon on Ghatotkacha, Karna could not use the same on Arjuna later. When Karna spent the shakti weapon to slay Ghatotkacha, Krishna knew that victory theirs for certain, as Karna did not have any divine weapons to fight Arjuna now.

[edit] Karna Parva
The Mahabharat war fought on day 16 and day 17 is documented as Karna Parva where Karna is the commander of Kaurava army.

[edit] The sixteenth day
On the sixteenth day Karna fought as commander in chief of the Kaurava army. There was no fight between Karna and Arjuna as Arjuna's chariot retreated seeing Karna's glorious form. This retreat by Arjuna is widely speculated on by many as ample evidence that Karna was a better warrior than Arjuna. Although, the TV series screened by B.R.Chopra depicts a war between Karna and Arjuna, there is no evidence of the same in Vedavyasa's Mahabharat.

[edit] The seventeenth day
On the seventeenth day of the battle, the much awaited duel between Karna and Arjuna took place.

During the battle, when Arjuna's arrows struck Karna's chariot,it moved back by a few feet. However, when Karna's arrows struck Arjuna's chariot, it moved back only a few inches. Krishna praised Karna for this. But, Arjuna got astonished and asked him the reason for his praise, In response, Krishna told Arjuna that Karna's chariot bore only the weight of Karna and Shalya. On the other hand, Arjuna's chariot bore the weight of the entire universe since Krishna and Hanuman were on the chariot. Despite this, Karna was able to move it.

Karna cut the string of Arjuna's bow multiple times. But, at each instant he found that Arjuna was able to tie back the bow string in the wink of an eye (in an extremely short time). For this, Karna praised Arjuna and remarked to Shalya that now he understood why people called him the greatest archer in the world. Though the duel was initially held at a stalemate, Karna was hampered when his chariot wheel sank into the ground in loose wet soil (BhoomiDevi's curse thus came into effect). He also found himself unable to remember the incantations for divine weapons, as his teacher Parashurama had foretold. Descending from his chariot to remove the wheel, he requested Arjuna to wait until it is set right as per the rules of battle. Krishna told Arjuna that Karna has no right to refer to the rules at this point, after having violated the same himself while killing Abhimanyu. He urged Arjuna to kill Karna while he was helpless (The Brahman's curse came into effect here). Lord Krishna told Arjuna that if he did not kill Karna at this critical juncture of the war, he might never be able to kill him and the Pandavas may never win the war. Thus, Arjuna fatally injured Karna using a divine arrow.

[edit] After Karna's death
Following the war, funeral rites were performed for all the fallen. Kunti then requested her sons to perform the rites for Karna as well. When they protested, saying he was a suta, she revealed the truth of his birth. The brothers were shocked to find they have committed fratricide. Yudhishtira in particular is furious with his mother, and curses all women to never be able to keep a secret from that point on.

Lord Krishna went to Gandhari to tell her Karna had died. Karna was the oldest son of Kunti and although he knew who he was, he still fought for Dhuryodhana. Gandhari told Lord Krishna, "you knew what was going to happen and you still could've prevented the war". Gandhari cursed Lord Krishna: "just as my entire family perished, your family will die the same way".

After the 18-day Mahabharata war at Kurukshetra ended, Lord Krishna asked Arjuna to step down from his chariot. When Arjuna did so, Krishna took Arjuna some distance away from the chariot. Then he signaled to Lord Hanuman seated on the chariot to get up. The moment Lord Hanuman jumped off the chariot, Arjuna's horses were burnt alive and his chariot exploded into pieces. Seeing this, Arjuna was shocked. Krishna then told him that the deadly astras of Bheeshma, Drona, Karna and Ashwattama had caused the destruction of Arjuna's horses and chariot. It was the divine presence of Lord Hanuman that maintained the chariot in a proper condition by postponing the effects of their divine weapons.

[edit] Karna as the adulated figure
Even though Karna devoted his services to evil Duryodhana, he remains an adulated figure for millions of Hindus and Indians. Karna is always considered as a formidable warrior, perhaps the greatest warrior of all time, a courageous spirit who braved impossible odds in his life, and died with unique courage, valor and honor. Karna is especially adored for his generosity. He is also considered an example of how misjudgment renders all the fine qualities of an individual futile.

Many Hindus consider Karna as a man who fought against his misfortunes throughout his life without a single pause. He never got his due, but never gave up his efforts. Many of his contemporaries including Bheeshma and Lord Krishna conceded Karna was a noble spirit who rarely appears in the human race. He is idealized as an inspiration for struggling humanity to not lose heart. Karna is also a popular Hindu male name.

There are many incidents and quotes which indicate the might and greatness of Karna. One of those incidents is during Karna's war with Arjuna. When Arjuna's chariot was shifted a few inches back by the impact of one of the arrows shot by Karna, Krishna being Arjuna's Sarathi(charioteer) praised Karna. On his comment, Arjuna exclaimed that "while I hit Karna's chariot it moved miles behind so there is no reason to praise Karna on this". Krishna then explained to Arjuna that “On your chariot I, Lord Vishnu am present. I own the weight of entire universe and in addition to it your chariot is the chariot of Agni(the fire god) and it has the blessings of Hanuman in the form of a flag. If you remove these factors your chariot will fly away, revolving around the Earth".

There are also certain incidents those describe Karna's ethics in war as well. One of them is during his duel with Arjuna, when by the blow of Karna's arrow Arjuna fainted. At that moment the cobra king Ashwasen who was sheltered by Karna, crept out of hiding and requested Karna to use his poison against Arjuna because Arjuna had burnt his home(a forest) to the ground. Karna refused to use a snake against any human, saying that it would be treachery towards humanity.

Furthermore; at night on the day of his death as Karna lay dying on the Kurukshetra battlefield, in the Pandava camp Krishna lay saddened. When questioned by Arjuna as to why he was upset, Krishna replied that he was mourning the passing of a great man like Karna. Angered by Krishna's affection for Karna, Arjuna demanded to know why. Then Krishna took Arjuna towards Karna, disguised as two Brahmins; one younger and one older. Krishna, disguised as the older Brahmin, said to Karna

"Oh Karna, you are known to be extremely genenrous, hence I am here requesting something for my sons wedding, what can you give me?"
Karna replied saying "I do not have anything to give you as I lie here dying, but if there is anything you can see which I can give you then please request that which you desire." Upon hearing this Krishna said, upon noting a golden tooth within Karna's mouth, "Oh Karna, I can see within your mouth a golden tooth, can you give me that?" And so Karna, using a nearby rock knocked his tooth out. In order to test Karna even more and in order to demonstrate to Arjuna Karna's generosity, Krishna scolded Karna for giving him something covered in blood which is not suitable for a brahmin to touch. Upon hearing this Karna began to cry and with his tears washed the tooth and gave it to Krishna. After this Krishna left and Arjuna followed. Krishna then told Arjuna that the passing of Karna from this world would mark the passing of generosity and other such qualities which Karna posseses; and hence he was mourning Karna's death.

[edit] Contrast with Arjuna
There are many parallels between Arjuna and Karna. Both were master archers, competed for Draupadi's hand, and had to fight their own brothers in the war. A deeper connection lies in the fact that the two felt strong ties to the Kaurava side both through friendship and through blood. Their decisions along with the corresponding consequences to themselves and their families, are used to emphasize the importance of doing one's duty as explained in the Bhagavad Gita by Krishna.

Karna serves as an excellent example of a gifted, generous, righteous and brave individual who was still doomed because of his loyalty towards Duryodhana. Karna had the five perfect qualities of a husband for Draupadi, but being with Duryodhana nullified these. Karna's affection for Duryodhana led him to, albeit unwillingly, assist his dear friend in all his actions against the Pandavas. Karna was aware of Duryodhana's malicious plans against the Pandavas. Karna was also aware of his own imminent downfall on assisting the evil against the good. While some maintain that he acquired a blemished image by his treatment of Draupadi at Dhritrashtra's court, others maintain that he was justified in this act, since it was Draupadi who first dishonored and humiliated him by unjustly denying him the opportunity to compete in her Swayamvara by insulting him with the soot-putra epithet (referring to him as being of a lower class background) in order to disqualify him; however, his role in the killing of an unarmed and outnumbered Abhimanyu can be interpreted as an act that more directly damaged him as an honorable warrior and doomed him to a similar fate. According to some interpretations of the Mahabharata, it was this deed that solidified Karna's status as a warrior on the wrong side of the war and sealed his fate of being killed by Arjuna in the same way, being unarmed, chariotless and with his back turned to Arjuna.

[edit] Factors that contributed towards Karna's death
1 The first and foremost contributor towards Karna's death was Sage Durvasa himself. While blessing Kunti with a mantra by which she could call upon any god of her choice, he did not tell her the consequence of this incantation. Thus, Kunti called Surya without being aware of the consequence of the Mantra much before her marriage, panics and subsequently abandoned the baby. His upbringing by the charioteer Adiratha denied Karna the recognition of a Kshatriya. It was Karna, not Yudhishtira or Duryodhana, who was the true heir to the throne of Hastinapur, but this was not realized as his birth was kept secret.

2 Lord Indra who in the form of a scorpion, stung Karna's thigh,which angered the guru Parasurama, who in turn cursed Karna for lying about his caste.

3 The curse of a Brahmin who owned a cow.

4 The curse of Bhoomidevi.

5 The giving away of his Kavacha and Kundala as alms to Lord Indra, this time disguised as a beggar, because of his extremely generous nature.

6 Invoking the Shakti weapon on Ghatotkacha.

7 His two promises to his mother Kunti.

8 Not using the "Nagastra" for the second time in accordance with his second promise to Kunti.

9 Shalya, who tried to dampen Karna's confidence and moral spirit by stating many facts about the Pandavas strength on the seventeenth day of the battle.

10 When Karna came to know that Pandavas were his brothers by Krishna just before the beginning of the Mahabharatha war, then all his hatred towards the Pandavas vanished. But, to be loyal to Duryodhana, Karna decided to fight against Arjuna in the war. On the other hand, none of the Pandavas were aware that Karna was their brother until after Karna's demise.

11 Abhimanyu's death.

12 Lord Krishna, by exhorting Arjuna to kill Karna when he was trying to push his chariot out of the mud.

13 Arjuna's charmed Gandiva bow.

14 Gandhari did not give her blessings to Karna on the seventeenth day.

15 Drona had divine weapons but still asked Karna to kill Ghatokacha with Indra's shakti weapon.

Badri

23rd October 2009, 03:22 AM

Excellent compilation of information on Dana Veera Soora Karna!

He is known for his generosity, his courage, and above all, his loyalty to Duryodhana, and many compare him with the other 'karna'- Kumbhakarna who fought for Ravana, even though knowing his brother was wrong.

But that is not really an accurate portrait of Karna. No one can deny his valour, his charity and generosity.

But the one thing I find Karna did not have is loyalty. Yes, Karna had not a shred of loyalty to Duryodhana. He was full and full a selfish person who used Duryodhana and his friendship for his own selfish ends! I am not sure whether Karna himself was aware of this or not!

Duryodhana was always jealous of the Pandavas. Ever since Kunti came to the city with her 5 young boys in tow, Duryodhana had not had good sleep. He tried many ways to do away with them - poisoning Bhima and having him thrown into the river, burning the lac house etc.

To him, elevating Karna was his means of placing a counter against his foes, the Pandavas. Thus, Duryodhana, in a way used Karna.

In return, Karna, who spoke often and eloquently, of his abiding friendship with Duryodhana betrayed him in the worst possible way.

Although Duryodhana tried numerous means to do away with the Pandavas, none of them really became the trigger point for the Great War. The War was really caused by the insult to Draupadi at the Kuru Court.

And who was directly responsible for that? None other than Karna!

When Draupadi was lost in the wager, Duryodhana ordered her brought to the court to sweep and clean the palace, for she was a servant. In a way even that was tolerable. Not even he had anything more vile in mind than that.

But it was his "dear friend"Karna who cried out to have her garments stripped, for she was a slave.

Knowing Dharma, knowing what was right and wrong, who is a friend? The one who leads you to sure destruction, or the one who keeps you from it? Is a friend one who simply agrees with you in whatever you say, or points out your faults to you, even though you may find it annoying?

Is a friend one who is interested in your welfare, or uses you and goads you into actions that satisfy his need for revenge, unmindful of the fact that those acts will spell your lasting doom, cause you eternal infamy?

Fie on such friendship! Duryodhana did not need any enemies when he had friends (or fiends) like Karna!

Raghu, in his assessment pointed out to a number of causes that led to Karna's downfall. None more vile, and none more direct as this insult to Draupadi that was instigated by Karna.

Even today, in a court of law, for a premeditated crime, the person who planned and instigated it is held to be as guilty, if not more, as the person who perpetrated it. Then Karna is the guilty one, more than Dushashana or Duryodhana.

Yes, he was valorous, he was generous, but loyal? NO. He was the worst betrayer of all. Like Brutus unto Caesar, this was the unkindest cut of all.

P_R

24th October 2009, 09:21 AM

Badri, that is an interesting perspective, but I am not sure where the disloyalty comes from.

Is a friend one who is interested in your welfare, or uses you and goads you into actions that satisfy his need for revenge, unmindful of the fact that those acts will spell your lasting doom, cause you eternal infamy?

This seems to assume that Karna knew that destruction and infamy is all that is surely ahead. That does not seem appropriate.

He had a personal motivation to run the Pandavas aground. But then, it was not something that was at odds with what Duryodhana wanted. At the height of their victory - pushing the Pandava ego to an all time low - it is quite presumable that both Karna and Duryodhana would have thought their positions were quite unassailable.

Only if Karna knew that Duryodhana would be destroyed but still put him in a spot, just for the sake of his personal revenge, can he be called disloyal. Sure, he can be called vindictive and bitter. Curiously at odds with the generosity which is supposed to characteristic of him.

But how could he be called disloyal when he had no reason better than Duryodhana to believe they would lose eventually.

Disclaimer: My reading of the Mahabharatham is rather cursory. So if it indeed was the case that Karna knew they were going to lose, then this argument stands void. One way I would see that happening is if he knew before others that Krishna - was more than just a neighboring King. And with him by their side the Pandavas couldn't lose. So then his loyalty can be judged based on whether he shared such insight with Duryodhana and counseled him accordingly. But as I see, even that knowledge wouldn't have deterred Duryodhana and Karna.

Badri

25th October 2009, 04:12 AM

PR,

For a person who was so Dharmic as to indulge in charity left, right and centre, refusing none (for such was his dharma), to not know the consequences of stripping an erstwhile queen in public is a bit rich!

Duryodhana made no pretensions to virtue. Duryodhana refused to do the right, he only wanted to do adharma.

The same cannot be held true of Karna.
Karna could not possibly hide behind the veil that he did not know right from wrong.

He was aware of right and wrong, as can be clearly seen when he lectures to Arjuna later in the battlefield on the adharma of attacking a warrior whose car had been stuck, despite the fact that he did the very same when Arjuna's chariot had been stuck!!!

Therefore it stands to reason that he knew, yet he did not share his insight with Duryodhana. Worse, when angered by Karna's comment, Vikarna, the youngest brother of the 100 pipped up and protested, Karna lectures him as well.

He says, " you young turk, you have no sense of propriety. You are just a stipling, shut up and sit down when your betters and elders are conducting their business!"

And later on, when Krishna comes to tell him to switch sides, he philosophises - yes, I know you are God, I know the Pandavas are dharmic, I know what Duryodhana did would lead him to everlasting infamy and ruin, yet I have to stick with him, for now, I cannot abandon him.

People look at this dialogue and say, aha, what loyalty. But if he knew full well the consequences of their actions, and knowing, he goaded Duryodhana, how can he not be held guilty of betrayal?

podalangai

25th October 2009, 05:42 AM

Badri:

You're discussing this in terms of morality. In the received text of the Mahabharata, everybody - Bhishma, Vikarna, Karna, even Draupadi herself - treat the question of her slavery as being a question of interpreting the law on slaves, their spouses and their possessions. Vikarna argues one side of the case and Karna argues the other - but both do so by arguing different interpretations of the law. Vikarna doesn't speak of immorality in the abstract, but frames his arguments with reference to the rules on capacity of persons to transact. In purely legalistic terms, the case put by Karna - that Draupadi was a slave whether validly staked by Yudhishtira or not - is arguably at least as strong as Vikarna's. The received text makes it quite clear that Bhishma was unable to decide which view was the correct one. You are, in essence, faulting Karna for not viewing the situation in terms of a morality which transcended the law. Well, nobody - not even Yudhishtira - seemed to view the situation in those terms.

In other words, what Karna was saying was - arguably - not legally incorrect. So, should Karna have had the foresight to recognise that it was morally wrong, even if strictly within the terms of the law? Not, I would argue, in the framework of the Northern recension of the Mahabharata. Consistently, throughout the text of the Mahabharata, character after character - Yudhishtira included - prove themselves unable to make the distinction between dharma as law and dharma as a broader conception of "sanmarga". So the framing of questions which are profoundly moral as pure questions of interpretation with little reference to broader issues of morality is characteristic of the received text of the Northern recension. The consistent exception is Vidura - during Draupadi's disrobement, too, he was the only one to frame the issue in moral terms - 'satya' and 'dharma' are repeatedly invoked side by side in his speech, in a way we simply don't see in the others.

On this point, therefore, Karna was no more blameworthy than most of the rest of his generation. This shouldn't be surprising: making the point of the general blameworthiness of mankind as we enter the Kali Yuga - the falling away of broader conceptions of morality, an obsession with narrow legalistic conceptions of duty, right and wrong - and its unimaginably destructive consequence was one of the chief polemical purposes of the redactor of this layer in the received text of the Mahabharata. Later commentators - particularly of the Srivaishnavite tradition - draw on this aspect of the work quite a bit.

So did Karna do wrong? Yes, he did. Was his wrongdoing so wilful that he should be condemned as a false, disloyal friend? No. He was as blind, egoistic and imperfect as the rest of his generation, and he was as loyal as his limits allowed him to be. You wouldn't say a blind man was a false friend because he didn't warn a friend that he was walking into a ditch. Karna was, similarly, 'blind' to the idea of binding imperatives or principles beyond legalism. It makes him a flawed man, certainly, but it doesn't make him a false friend.

PARAMASHIVAN

28th October 2009, 02:43 PM

Badri

I have to disagree completley about' Maveer Karna's loyality to Duriyodhana, It was Shakuni who persuaded Duriyodhana to take Karna into his web , as he was the 'Only' warrior who could defeat Arjuna.. till his death Karna has always been loyal to his friend...

Regarding panchali, she is not exatcly ' Pure' , is she??? there are harsh words to describe her, but I will refrain from her, she has 'Insulted' Karna in her Swayamvar! however Karna should not have behaved like that during droupadai's ordeal!

Raghu

30th October 2009, 12:35 AM

excellent narration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Lf7Q0C9_00

Arjuna has always been a clown in the epic !

Avadi to America

30th June 2010, 02:05 AM

what was shaguni's real motivation in mahabarath? is that he wants to destroy gouravas? and it can be done only by pandavas....so he made feud between gouravas and pandavas....please clear my doubt.

PARAMASHIVAN

30th June 2010, 02:51 PM

what was shaguni's real motivation in mahabarath? is that he wants to destroy gouravas? and it can be done only by pandavas....so he made feud between gouravas and pandavas....please clear my doubt.

Shaguni's motivation was to Crown Duryodhana as the Prince, this was not possible until the Pandavas were eliminated. As Pandu (Pandavas Father) already made it clear that it would be Yudishtar who will rule the country after him.

Iqbalvora

30th June 2010, 03:00 PM

Iqbalvora

30th June 2010, 03:04 PM

Paramashiva

Pandu dies unceremoniously in forest while mating with Madri ( a curse on him ). Beeshma/Vidur bring the pandava kids to Hastinapur to groom them.
So, Pandu is gone well before he can take a decision on his succession. Infact he hands over his right to Dirudrashtra and decides to live in forest .

littlemaster1982

1st July 2010, 07:33 AM

what was shaguni's real motivation in mahabarath? is that he wants to destroy gouravas? and it can be done only by pandavas....so he made feud between gouravas and pandavas....please clear my doubt.

Saguni didn't like his sister Gandhaari being married to a blind man. He was angry that such a match was made by Bhismar and he vowed to destroy the whole clan. This is what I have read.

PARAMASHIVAN

2nd July 2010, 02:35 PM

Paramashiva

Pandu dies unceremoniously in forest while mating with Madri ( a curse on him ).
.

This a very common thing in our 'Great' epics, I mean adultry :banghead:

Beeshma/Vidur bring the pandava kids to Hastinapur to groom them.
So, Pandu is gone well before he can take a decision on his succession. Infact he hands over his right to Dirudrashtra and decides to live in forest .

Yes I know that, but by default Yudishar was going to be the next ruler, after Dirudrashtra. :roll:

PARAMASHIVAN

2nd July 2010, 02:36 PM

what was shaguni's real motivation in mahabarath? is that he wants to destroy gouravas? and it can be done only by pandavas....so he made feud between gouravas and pandavas....please clear my doubt.

Saguni didn't like his sister Gandhaari being married to a blind man. He was angry that such a match was made by Bhismar and he vowed to destroy the whole clan. This is what I have read.

This is the first time I hearing this :shock:

P_R

2nd July 2010, 04:02 PM

When Bhishma (or someone from the Kuru clan) captures Gandhar, he jails the entire royal family inlcuding Shakuni as a child. The whole family was given food for just one person. Instead of all of them starving to death by sharing the insufficient food, they decided that the child would get all the food and make it his life mission to avenge the Kuru clan. Which is what he did.

The dice used by Shakuni (which he always has in his hand) are made from the bones of his father, to perpetually remind him of his duty.

podalangai

3rd July 2010, 02:36 AM

Arvind Srinivasan

30th March 2012, 10:29 PM

From what I've heard, gandhari was married to a goat to avert a calamity before marrying Dhritarashtra. When Dhritarashtra came to know of this he imprisoned the entire gandhar clan. In prison, they were served just one fistful of rice every day. Realizing that this was an elaborate plan to starve them to death, Gandhari’s father declared that none but his youngest son would eat the sparse food being served, so that at least one amongst them would survive to avenge the death of the rest. The youngest son of king Subala was Shakuni. He survived and swore not to rest until all of Kuru kingdom is destroyed . He used the bones of his father to make the dice with which he was able to defeat the Pandavas in the gambling match, and thus which eventually led to the war at Kurukshetra and also to the destruction of entire Kuru clan.His father twisted his one leg to give him a permanent limp as a constant reminder of revenge. Guess the dice used by shakuni was made of his father's ashes......

ajithfederer

30th March 2012, 10:39 PM

Rajshri(youtube) has all the episodes from this epic uploaded in their channel.

Avadi to America

30th March 2012, 10:47 PM

As soon as the Kauravas and the Pandavas had acquired mastery in the science of arms, Drona sent Karna and Duryodhana to seize Drupada and bring him alive, in discharge of the duty they owed to him as their master.
They went as ordered by him, but could not accomplish their task. Then the master sent forth Arjuna on the same errand. He defeated Drupada in battle and brought him and his minister captives to Drona.

The above statement was written in a book "mahabarata retold by RAJAJI". Is this true?

Avadi to America

30th March 2012, 10:48 PM

ajithfederer

30th March 2012, 10:58 PM

Started reading Nakkeerar's recital of the Great war from the 86th page. Fascinating :thumbsup:.

Thanks for digging this thread up.

PARAMASHIVAN

11th April 2014, 08:20 PM

During Draupadi's swayumvara , she insults Karna by saying "suthaputhra" and because of that he is not allowed to lift shivadhanush . This insult is not regarded as "adharma" by Krishna ? but during the gambling when pandavas and draupadi looses the game, Karna says few word "Remembering" his insult by her, here Krishna says this is adharma!

Where is the logic of Karma here?? So is Dharma and Adharma made for one's convenient ? :huh: